obama's speech - Teh Forum

<body> <div id="header"> <span class="left"> <span class="back"><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT"><span class="image mobile_back" title="Back"></span></a></span> <span class="image mobile_logo" title="Beehive Forum Logo"></span> </span> <ul> <li> <a class="reply_all" href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41193.0&return_msg=41193.26"> <span class="image mobile_reply_all"></span><span class="text">Reply to All</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="navigation" href="#"> <span class="image mobile_navigation"></span><span class="text">Show messages</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="main" href="#"><span class="image mobile_menu" title="Menu"></span> </a> </li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu main"> <ul> <li><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Messages</a></li> <li><a href="lpm.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Inbox</a></li> <li><a href="lsearch.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Search</a></li> <li><a href="llogon.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Login</a></li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu navigation"><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41193.1">1–10</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41193.11">11–20</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41193.21">21–30</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41193.31">31–40</a>…<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41193.81">81–88</a></div> <div id="page_content"> <h3 class="thread_title"><a href="index.php?webtag=DEFAULT&amp;msg=41193.26">obama's speech</a> </h3> <div id="messages" data-navigation="41193_26_88_10"> <a name="a41193_26"></a><div class="message" id="message_41193_26"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: ANT_THOMAS<span class="message_time">14 Sep 2014 08:15</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: 99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 14 Sep 2014 08:37"></span></span> <span class="message_count">26 of 88</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41193.26">41193.26</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41193.25">41193.25</a></div> <div class="message_body"> I guess it then comes down to saying that none of the options represent them. <br /> <br /> Which sends you to the next option, stand yourself then? I can only imagine that is incredibly difficult (read: impossible) because of the prohibitively high cost of entering US politics. </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41193.26&return_msg=41193.26" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41193.26"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41193_27"></a><div class="message" id="message_41193_27"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: fixrman<span class="message_time">14 Sep 2014 14:08</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: 99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 14 Sep 2014 14:49"></span></span> <span class="message_count">27 of 88</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41193.27">41193.27</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41193.20">41193.20</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">Clinton...but she's not been elected yet.</div> <p>Now that's comedy. Basically the fact you like Clinton shows that you are not well informed at all about American politics. We already had one failed experiment, the America people don't need to suffer under another one. The PIAPS is probably more corrupt than Johnson was and is morally bankrupt. Perhaps look into her past before you make a judgement on her. The fact that she is female should not <span style="color:#696969;">make a difference</span><span style="color:#808080;"> </span>to you, at least in the sense of making historical strides. A female president is not necessarily a Bad Thing for America, except for that female. I am not sure she even is a woman.<br /> </p> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41193.27&return_msg=41193.26" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41193.27"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41193_28"></a><div class="message" id="message_41193_28"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)<span class="message_time">14 Sep 2014 14:22</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: fixrman <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 14 Sep 2014 18:08"></span></span> <span class="message_count">28 of 88</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41193.28">41193.28</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41193.26#a41193_27" target="_self">41193.27</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Hillary Clinton's a nasty piece of work, always has been.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41193.28&return_msg=41193.26" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41193.28"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41193_29"></a><div class="message" id="message_41193_29"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: cynicoid<span class="message_time">14 Sep 2014 16:34</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: ALL<span class="message_count">29 of 88</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41193.29">41193.29</a></div> <div class="message_body"> I just go along with the expert, unbiased views of Rupert Murdoch and Channel 4 comedians.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41193.29&return_msg=41193.26" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41193.29"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41193_30"></a><div class="message" id="message_41193_30"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: fixrman<span class="message_time">14 Sep 2014 19:58</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Drew (X3N0PH0N) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 14 Sep 2014 23:54"></span></span> <span class="message_count">30 of 88</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41193.30">41193.30</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41193.21">41193.21</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">But I was more referring to the ineptitude with which the political class responded to the situation (or in Obama's case singularly failed to, which is fucking <em>weird</em> for a second term president for whom the whole Ferguson thing must touch on issues of importance).</div> <p>What's even more weird is the lack of crticism for the obama administration; if George Bush or any other Republican had been POTUS, the media wailings and criticisms would be loud and long. Look at how the media criticised GWB for Katrina, when in fact, although the Feds could have done more, it was really the local, State governments that failed to act and people largely did not evacuate even though they should have.<br /><br /> GWB went on TV, nationally broadcast, and called the storm a dangerous Category Five hurricane, calling for the people of the Gulf Coast communities to put their safety and their families safety above all else and move to safe ground. Bush had already spoken to Ray Nagin who was central to the problems NO. Nagin, failed to implement an evacuation plan until less than a day before Katrina hit. There were parking lots full of buses that could have been used for evacuation, but Nagin was worried about insurance and a shortage of bus drivers. Nagin is going to jail for corruption in relation to Katrina rebuilding. Although Governor Blanco and Mayor Nagin (both Democrats) were slow to act especially in asking for help as is required, FEMA and Bush ended up taking most of the blame. Democrats get a free pass.<br /><br /> obama got more involved in the Trayvon Martin case and stupidly made the inept comment, "If I had a son, he would look like Trayvon Martin". And that meant what? Perhaps obama's handlers decided that his reading from a teleprompter on the Brown (Ferguson) case might actually do more harm than good.<br /> </p> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">excludes lots of classes of prisoners which are included in other countries' figures and still manages to dwarf the numbers for any comparable country. England and Wales are on 148.</div> <p>Is it possible that other countries include our excludes in their general population? I don't see a mentioning on why the U.S. figures are broken out as they are, do you?<br /><br /> Curiously your population figures fail to mention some interesting facts:<br /><br /> U.S. population: 318M; England, Scotland, Wales 64M; Seychelles, 92k; Saint Kitts, Nevis, 51K<br /><br /> While the U.S crime rate per 100 thousand based on population is 707, yours is 148; ESW population is just under 5 times what ours is, so actually your crime rate is higher than ours adjusted for total population, resulting in 732 per 100K. Seychelles would look even worse with a population of 92k and a per 100k of 868. But I am just spitballing here.</p> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">The causes of this problem are of course manifold. A few obvious ones being disenfrranchisement of minorities (it's not just blacks that are overrepresented in prisons, also hispanics), gun laws, popularity of 'tough on crime' stances with electorates, the fact that minorities are less likely to vote.</div> <p>Blacks and Hispanics are also overrepresented via population densities in cities, which tend to be Democratic. They are not less likely to vote, especially in cities and where perhaps the presence of militant, baton-wielding Black Panthers may be present to dissuade white votes. In suburban and rural areas you definitely have my attention. All this said, I do agree in large measure that whites do not suffer the persecution that blacks do in situations involving crime. Black crime is sensationalised by the media (tends to be Liberal, Left, leaning - i.e Democratic) here which is odd considering Dems claim to represent minorites, especially blacks. Recently the Dems have claimed to be for Latinos as well, but recent actions (or inactions as it were) seem to indicate their overall motivation is to get votes rather than actual reforms to help Hispanics.<br /> </p> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">But I think the real clincher is the fact that many of your prisons are run as businesses and those businesses are owned, ultimately, by politicians, lawmakers and those with lobbying influence.</div> <p>That's almost as bad as saying that there are nothing but innocent Black and Hispanic people in our prisons although we both know that isn't true. If prisons were big business there would be an incentive to increase their population through the incarceration of all people - if not certainly more minorities - but in Big Business, what would it matter? There are plenty of dirtbag white boys throughout the country who easily belong in the clink. Interestingly, prison workers are generally represented by unions, so if anyone questions the amount of imprisonment or the number of prisons, the Dems are going to fight on that one because Democrats are pro-Union and Unions are pro-Democrat. Just so you know, businesses to my way of thinking are started for profit. Prisons do not operate profitably.<br /> </p> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">It's a humanitarian crime that dwarfs anything China, Russia or NK are up to and yet it goes largely uncommented upon.</div> <p>The humanitarian crimes are perpetrated when a guy like Rodney King gets beaten. That was sensationalised too, but King was likely drunk driving and was attempting to elude the police at high speed. He also apparently charged a police officer, a fact which is sometimes disputed but may be supported by video. The real crime was that the police officers, though several were fired, were acquitted on charges of assault with a deadly weapon and use of excessive force. Scores of police departments across the country have been investigated or otherwise have come under scrutiny for racial profiling. It does happen and is just as wrong as letting the white guy go for a similar crime.<br /><br /> How do gun laws figure into the whole thing? Are you for more gun laws or less? If you support fewer guns, then I'd suggest taking another look at your crime rate vs ours whilst adjusting your population to the size of ours. All things being equal, I project your crime rate would still go up with more people.</p> <div class="edit_text">EDITED: 14 Sep 2014 20:03 by FIXRMAN</div> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41193.30&return_msg=41193.26" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41193.30"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41193_31"></a><div class="message" id="message_41193_31"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Drew (X3N0PH0N)<span class="message_time">15 Sep 2014 00:22</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: fixrman <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 15 Sep 2014 00:26"></span></span> <span class="message_count">31 of 88</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41193.31">41193.31</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41193.26#a41193_30" target="_self">41193.30</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote"><span style="font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);">What's even more weird is the lack of crticism for the obama administration</span></div> I've seen <em>tonnes</em> of criticism of the Obama administration. I've seen nothing <em>but</em> criticism. I don't know what you've been reading.<br /> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote"><span style="font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);">Is it possible that other countries include our excludes in their general population?</span></div> No, if there are exclusions then they are noted, as they are for the U.S.:<br /> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States" style="color:rgb(250,167,0);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:22.3999996185303px;" title="United States">United States</a><span style="color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:22.3999996185303px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);">. Rate is for inmates held in adult facilities. For juvenile detention numbers see </span><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youth_incarceration_in_the_United_States" style="text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:22.3999996185303px;" title="Youth incarceration in the United States">Youth incarceration in the United States</a><span style="color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:22.3999996185303px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);">. See notes at the bottom of the </span><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Bureau_of_Justice_Statistics" style="text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:22.3999996185303px;" title="U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics">U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics</a><span style="color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:22.3999996185303px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);"> (BJS) source table used by the World Prison Brief to calculate the rate in the above list: "Total includes all inmates held in local jails, state or federal prisons, or privately operated facilities. Excludes inmates held in </span><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Territories" style="text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:22.3999996185303px;" title="U.S. Territories">U.S. Territories</a><span style="color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:22.3999996185303px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);"> (appendix tables 2 and 3), </span><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_prison" style="text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:22.3999996185303px;" title="Military prison">military facilities</a><span style="color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:22.3999996185303px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);"> (appendix tables 2 and 4), </span><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Immigration_and_Customs_Enforcement" style="text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:22.3999996185303px;" title="U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement">U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement</a><span style="color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:22.3999996185303px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);"> [ICE] facilities, facilities contracted by the </span><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Marshals_Service" style="text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:22.3999996185303px;" title="U.S. Marshals Service">U.S. Marshals Service</a><span style="color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:22.3999996185303px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);">, jails in Indian country, or juvenile facilities."</span><sup style="line-height:1;font-size:11px;color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate#cite_note-4" style="text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);white-space:nowrap;">[4]</a></sup><span style="color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:22.3999996185303px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);"> BJS has numbers for U.S. Territories, military facilities, ICE, and for jails in Indian country.</span><sup style="line-height:1;font-size:11px;color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate#cite_note-5" style="text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);white-space:nowrap;">[5]</a></sup><sup style="line-height:1;font-size:11px;color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate#cite_note-6" style="text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);white-space:nowrap;">[6]</a></sup><sup style="line-height:1;font-size:11px;color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate#cite_note-7" style="text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);white-space:nowrap;">[7]</a></sup><sup style="line-height:1;font-size:11px;color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate#cite_note-8" style="text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);white-space:nowrap;">[8]</a></sup></div> Only the U.S. and North Korea have such exclusions.<br /> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote"><span style="font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);">I don't see a mentioning on why the U.S. figures are broken out as they are, do you?</span></div> For the same reason North Korea's are, in an attempt to hide the problem.<br /> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote"><span style="font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);">Curiously your population figures fail to mention some interesting facts:</span><br style="font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);" /><br style="font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);" /><span style="font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);">U.S. population: 318M; England, Scotland, Wales 64M; Seychelles, 92k; Saint Kitts, Nevis, 51K</span><br style="font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);" /><br style="font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);" /><span style="font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);">While the U.S crime rate per 100 thousand based on population is 707, yours is 148; ESW population is just under 5 times what ours is, so actually your crime rate is higher than ours adjusted for total population, resulting in 732 per 100K. Seychelles would look even worse with a population of 92k and a per 100k of 868. But I am just spitballing here.</span></div> You seem to have grossly misunderstood the figures. They're not crime rates, they're incarceration rates.<br /><br /> Crime rates per country are very difficult to compare (because different nations obviously define different things as a crime) but in most figures the U.S. comes out kinda ok, you certainly have a high crime rate but not that much higher than comparable countries. Some <a href="http://www.numbeo.com/crime/rankings_by_country.jsp">figures here</a>. Which is part of the point - your incarceration rate is 478% that of the UK while your crime rate is only 121% that of the UK (for example).<br /><br /> But no, the figures I linked are <em>already</em> per population. They represent the number of incarcerated people (minus all those exemptions) per 100,000 population. You are adjusting a figure for population when it's already adjusted for population. Your <i>total</i> prison population is of course higher and would be expected to be, you have far more people.<br /><br /> To be clear, and using <a href="http://www.idcr.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/WPPL-9-22.pdf">these figures</a>:<br /><br /> The USA has a population of 308 million, of whom 2,292,133 are in prison.<br /><br /> The UK has a population of 62.5 million, of whom 94,511 are in prison.<br /><br /> So your population is 5x larger but the number of people you incarcerate is 24x larger.<br /><br /> For context, the oppressive regime of China has a population of 1.6 <em>billion</em> and still incarcerates fewer people than the U.S.: about 1.4 million (though their figures are as dodgy as yours).<br /><br /> <div class="edit_text">EDITED: 15 Sep 2014 00:25 by X3N0PH0N</div> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41193.31&return_msg=41193.26" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41193.31"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41193_32"></a><div class="message" id="message_41193_32"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: fixrman<span class="message_time">15 Sep 2014 01:55</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Drew (X3N0PH0N) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 15 Sep 2014 02:12"></span></span> <span class="message_count">32 of 88</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41193.32">41193.32</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41193.26#a41193_31" target="_self">41193.31</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">You seem to have grossly misunderstood the figures. They're not crime rates, they're incarceration rates.</div> <p>That is correct. I was thinking one thing and typed another which blew apart my reply. Sorry.<br /> </p> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">Your <i>total</i> prison population is of course higher and would be expected to be, you have far more people.</div> <p>That was my basic point. But I don't see why you refer to U.S. Figures as "dodgy"? First off I could understand your point if the U.S. were hiding figures, they're not. China, for example holds a lot of people in detention centers and those are not counted. So the U.S. could also hold a percentage in "detention centers" and thus make the numbers look better, since you seem to think there is a deliberate action to make our numbers look better. I disagree with that.<br /><br /> People who cannot make bail, are considered a flight risk or are violent are in jail. Jail (temporary) is not the same as prison.They are awaiting trail and counted as incarcerated (in the study you posted). Should we just release them back into the general population in the hopes they arrive for trial? As you have stated, since laws for crimes vary that will also affect the numbers in prisons and reflects those who are actually serving time after trial and been found guilty. But our figures do include those in jail.<br /><br /> Interestingly, jail and prison seems to be viewed as being the same thing over there.<br /><br /> We do incarcerate people over here in an extremely wasteful manner by the imprisonment of people for victimless crimes. We could reduce our prison population by 30-80% if those people were not in our prisons. I am talking about drug users (50% Federal prisons pop.) and Public Order (35%) offenses (people arrested on weapons charges, public drunkeness, illegal gambling, prostitution). I don't know what should necessarily be done about the illegal behaviour, but certainly imprisoning someone who is non-violent and really only hurting themselves is ridiculous - until of course they start other behaviour which may include a victim such as theivery to support a drug or gambling habit or violence in performing those behaviours.<br /><br /> But of course I would suspect that guys like Roy Walmsley write books, then he sells lots of books to people and prisons actually end up being big business for him. So without prisons, what does he write about?<br /><br /> Interestingly, Democratic Underground has an article or more on his thoughts. Perhaps if Democratic underground came above ground, they'd advance their agenda better. Another interesting thing to note is while Democrats love to talk about limiting government and how evil the Republicans are, they are typically the ones making all of those silly laws, rules and regulations that have to get enforced. So who is going to enforce all of those laws the Dems dream up? Big Government, the very thing they claim to want to avoid. No wonder Dems are always being accused of having pretzel logic.<br /><br /><br /> </p> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41193.32&return_msg=41193.26" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41193.32"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41193_33"></a><div class="message" id="message_41193_33"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Drew (X3N0PH0N)<span class="message_time">15 Sep 2014 02:23</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: fixrman <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 15 Sep 2014 13:59"></span></span> <span class="message_count">33 of 88</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41193.33">41193.33</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41193.26#a41193_32" target="_self">41193.32</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote"><span style="font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);">China, for example holds a lot of people in detention centers and those are not counted</span></div> That's exactly what they (the US) do. I don't believe the sole intent is to obfuscate the facts (there are different categories of prisoners, as you rightly say), but I do think that's a nice fringe benefit.<br /><br /> But you certainly count low, compared directly to other countries (excluding juveniles for example).<br /><br /> But yeah, that's all kinda beside the point. That being that you imprison an <em>offensively high</em> proportion of your population and an equally offensively high proportion of your minorities (way higher than an increased crime rate would justify, in both cases).<br /><br /> I agree with your assessment - too many prisoners for non-violent crimes. And I'd reiterate that while the rich and powerful (including the political class) profit from this. They'll continue to drum up (massively out of proportion) fear of crime, campaign on 'tough on crime' and line their pockets.<br /><br /> It's a broken system. You're the most advanced and wealthy nation in the history of the world and yet you lock up a greater proportion of your citizens than any nation in history. It's not right.<br /><br /> I'll respond to the rest in a separate post cos it's a separate issue.<br /><br /> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41193.33&return_msg=41193.26" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41193.33"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41193_34"></a><div class="message" id="message_41193_34"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Drew (X3N0PH0N)<span class="message_time">15 Sep 2014 03:06</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: fixrman <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 15 Sep 2014 13:59"></span></span> <span class="message_count">34 of 88</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41193.34">41193.34</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41193.26#a41193_32" target="_self">41193.32</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Ok, this is just a general response about USA party politics in general.<br /><br /> We generally don't respond to this stuff because we (i.e. those of us outside of the US) can't really relate to it. Your politics doesn't really bear much resemblance to anything outside the US.<br /><br /> You've got two centre-right parties (in European terms) neither of which has a really solid historical ideological basis. Both are really (if indirectly, in the case of the Republicans) descended from the Democratic-Republican Party which did exist in a genuine ideological dichotomy with the Federalists. The fact that both of your parties (in what is a de facto two party system) descend from the same ideological base is quite telling. You essentially have two parties of Whigs.<br /><br /> The only real <i>political</i> difference between the two is that the Democrats are <em>margianlly</em> more socially liberal. In broad terms you couldn't really get an ant's bollock between them in terms of economic or foreign policy.<br /><br /> So they create issues to split the vote: Abortion, 'Big vs. Small Government', 'Family Values' and meaningless shit like that.<br /><br /> Abortion is a good example of the absolute fucking nonsense of US politics. It's probably the most superficially divisive of all US political issues with vehement sentiments on both sides and countless hours wasted talking, arguing, writing, debating and (as it all really amounts to) posturing over it.<br /><br /> The reason it's bollocks is that the vast majority of the general public agree on abortion: It's unfortunate, it should happen as little as possible and it should be legal and safe. The reason it's <em>even more bollocks</em> is that the (national) political parties agree on that, too. In terms of national policy there's really fuck all difference between either party on this issue. <br /><br /> So why is so much time spent on such a non-issue? Because the Republicans can keep the support of the Christian right (and the funding they bring) by talking about it and the Democrats can mobilise their left (and the funding and grass-roots support they bring) by talking about it. It's an issue that works beautifully for both of the parties, maintaining party unity but is absolutely meaningless in terms of actual politics, party politics. the majority of the electorate or national policy.<br /><br /> The fact that the Christian right and the Republican party are in bed togther is another example of the absolute nonsensicality of US politics. These two entities agree on absolutely <em>nothing</em> of substance. Abortion keeps them together but they don't even <em>really</em> agree on this - for the Christians it's an absolute moral issue whereas true political republicans simply consider it a state rather than federal issue. That's not political agreement, it's strategic alliance. Which would be fine except that it hugely distorts the issue and does immense harm to the democratic process.<br /><br /> And then there's the libertarians who do at least have something resembling a political philosophy and one which makes sense in the context of US political and cultural history. It's an utterly insane ideology in a United States where the political and economic discourse is already dictated too much by corporate self-interest, but at least it's cohesive. <br /><br /> The US is, in a global context, an extremely politically unified country - that is to say that most people by far agree on most things, especially the big things (i.e. economics and foreign and (in broad terms) domestic policy). The parties use wedge issues to create artificial and largely meaningless divisions in order to create this false sense of polarisation where really none exists.<br /><br /> The <em>real</em> defining difference between the two parties is (a little over-)simply: <ul><li>Republicans believe strongly in trickle-down (and the rest of their policy grows from this).</li> <li>Democrats believe slightly less in trickle-down (and ditto)</li> </ul><span style="font-size:13px;">Everything else - Big Govt. vs. Small Govt. for example - stems from this.</span><br /><br /> I honestly believe that most people in both parties genuinely want what's best for the country. And that they both genuinely want to help those worst off - that they want to make a fairer, more prosperous and more peaceful society. They simply disagree on how to best achieve that.<br /><br /> An ongoing national debate on that topic would be of enormous value to the electorate and would constitute a real exploration of <em>actual</em> political issues - the other issues would be placed before the electorate in a meaningful context - and the public would be able to make sense of them, make meaningful, informed political decisions on <i>all</i> the issues.<br /><br /> But it won't happen because it's <em>hard</em> and <em>complicated</em> and it's not what the entities that fund political campaigns want politicians to talk about. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> <br /> <div class="edit_text">EDITED: 15 Sep 2014 03:12 by X3N0PH0N</div> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41193.34&return_msg=41193.26" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41193.34"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41193_35"></a><div class="message" id="message_41193_35"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Drew (X3N0PH0N)<span class="message_time">15 Sep 2014 03:10</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: fixrman <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 15 Sep 2014 13:59"></span></span> <span class="message_count">35 of 88</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41193.35">41193.35</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41193.26#a41193_32" target="_self">41193.32</a></div> <div class="message_body"> The point of that is to say: from my point of view US politics bears no resemblance to what is called politics anywhere else in the world.<br /><br /> Seeing it from the outside it's like looking at lunatics wrestling in their own shit as a crowd of shit-splattered lunatics cheer on. And I'd rather just not get involved nor waste much thought on it.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41193.35&return_msg=41193.26" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41193.35"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div></div> <div class="message_page_footer"> <ul> <li class="right_col"><form accept-charset="utf-8" method="get" action="lmessages.php" target="_self"><input type="hidden" name="webtag" id="webtag" class="bhinputtext" value="DEFAULT" dir="ltr" /><input type="hidden" name="msg" id="msg" class="bhinputtext" value="41193.36" dir="ltr" /><input type="submit" name="submit" id="keep_reading" value="Keep reading…" class="button" /></form></li> </ul> </div> </div> </body>