War & PoliticsBrexit deal nigh or nyet?

 

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 From:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)  
 To:  ANT_THOMAS     
42264.54 In reply to 42264.50 
> it's his group of followers and it somewhat taints his reputation unfortunately.

No, it's not "his" group of followers.

Jeremy Corbyn is opposed to what the Israeli government is doing to Palestinians.

That attracts support of other people with the same view - and Jeremy welcomes these people.

It may also attract the support of people with an "enemy of my enemy" perspective, which includes people who don't care what the Israeli government is doing, but opposes Israel purely because it's a Jewish nation - and Jeremy condemns those people.

I've challenged you to support your assertions with evidence: find statistics that Labour attracts more anti-Semites than other parties. The Tory-leaning YouGov found they've got the lowest rates amongst voters (despite the above), and there's no reason to expect this to be any different among the party membership.

By believing and repeating that it is a Labour/Corbyn problem without any such proof, you're spreading the propaganda and contributing to the damaged reputation, and in turn reducing the chance of replacing the Conservatives.

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 From:  ANT_THOMAS  
 To:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)     
42264.55 In reply to 42264.54 
Do Labour now have a problem with antisemitism?
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 From:  Manthorp  
 To:  ANT_THOMAS     
42264.56 In reply to 42264.55 
What is self-evident is that both Labour and the Tories have a problem with leadership. A fundamental role of leadership is keeping the team together; and both leaderships are failing to do so.

It's partly, but only partly, a consequence of the almost unfeasibly broad churches created by the first-past-the-post voting system, and the responsibility that imposes upon the respective leaderships to maintain a working level of loyalty from MPs with a wide range of political convictions. That's exacerbated by the fact that both parties are currently pandering to their ideological heartlands (Labour through the convictions of the leadership, the Tories out of tactical necessity) and both have alienated members of their one-nation factions as a consequence.

Lastly, both parties currently have chronically weak leadership teams. All-in-all it's a right bloody mess and won't get better unless and until the parties elect strong, inclusive leaders and/or government introduces voting reform*.






*Not gonna happen

"We all have flaws, and mine is being wicked."
James Thurber, The Thirteen Clocks 1951
 
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 From:  milko  
 To:  ANT_THOMAS     
42264.57 In reply to 42264.55 
They now have the same problem as before, disingenuous accusations claiming it's the leadership somehow at fault for random people on social media. Or that the people within the party who've been referred to police investigations are somehow not being dealt with quickly enough I suppose, but that would be the police following legal process?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/20/jeremy-corbyn-labour-party-crucial-ally-in-fight-against-antisemitism

Naturally, people are unironically using antisemitic arguments "the wrong kind of jew" to argue that this letter doesn't count and labour are antisemitic. Ho hum!
milko
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 From:  milko  
 To:  milko     
42264.58 In reply to 42264.57 
https://www.facebook.com/aboyle11/posts/10158277882684358
 
Quote: 

1. In October 1936, Jeremy Corbyn’s mother participated in the battle of Cable Street indefence of British Jews after British fascists had staged an assault on the area. Corbyn was raised in a household passionately opposed to antisemitism in all its forms.

2. In 23rd April 1977, Corbyn organised a counter-demonstrationto protect Wood Green from a neo-nazi march through the district. The area had a significant Jewish population.

3. On 7 November 1990, Corbyn signed a motion condemning the rise of antisemitism in the UK

4. In 2002 Jeremy Corbyn led a clean-up and vigil at Finsbury Park Synagogue which had been vandalised in an anti-Semitic attack

5. On 30 April 2002, Corbyn tabled a motion in the House of Commons condemning ananti-Semitic attackon a London Synagogue

6. On 26 November 2003, Jeremy Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion condemningterrorist attacks on two synagogues

7. In February 2009, Jeremy Corbyn signed a parliamentary motion condemning a fascist for establishing a website to host antisemitic materials

8. On 24th March 2009, Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion praising British Jews who resisted the Holocaust by risking their lives to save potential victims

9. Nine years ago, Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion praising “Jewish News”for its pioneering investigation into the spread ofAntisemitism on Facebook

10. On 9 February 2010, Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion calling for an investigation into Facebook and its failure to prevent the spread of antisemitic materials on its site.

11. On 27 October 2010, Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion praising the late Israeli Prime Minister for pursuing a two state solution to the Israel/Palestine question.

12. On 13 June 2012, Corbyn sponsored and signed a motion condemning the BBC for cutting a Jewish Community television programme from its schedule.

13. 1 October 2013, Corbyn appeared on the BBC to defend Ralph Miliband against vile antisemitic attacks by the UK press.

14. Five years ago Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion condemning antisemitism in sport.

15. On 1 March 2013, Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion condemning and expressing concern at growing levels of antisemitism in European football.

16. On 9 January 2014, Jeremy Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion praising Holocaust education programmes that had taken 20,000 British students to Auschwitz.

17. On 22 June 2015, Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion expressing concern at the neo-nazi march being planned for an area of London with a significant Jewish population.

18. On 9 October 2016, Corbyn, close to tears, commemorated the 1936 Battle of Cable Street and recalled the role his mother played in defending London’s Jewish community.

19. On 3 December 2016, Corbyn made a visit to Terezin Concentration Camp when Jewish people were murdered by the Nazis. It was Jeremy’s third visit to such a camp, all of which were largely unreported in the most read UK papers.

20. Last year, a widely-endorsed 2018 academic report found ninety-five serious reporting failures in the reporting of the LabourAntisemitism story with the worst offenders The Sun, the Mail & the BBC.

21. On 28 February 2016, five months after becoming leader, Jeremy Corbyn appointed Baroness Royall to investigate antisemitism at Oxford University Labour Club.

22. On 27 April 2016 Corbyn suspended an MP pending an investigation into antisemitism.

23. A day later, Corbyn suspended the three times Mayor of London after complaints of antisemitic comments. Party.

24. On 29 April 2016, Corbyn launched an inquiry into the prevalence of antisemitism in the Labour Party. In spite of later changes in how the inquiry was reported, it was initially praised by Jewish community organisations.

25. In Corbyn’s first seven months as leader of the Labour Party, just ten complaints were received about antisemitism. 90% of those were suspended from the Labour Party within 24 hours.

26. In September 2017, Corbyn backed a motion at Labour’s annual conference introducing a new set of rules regarding antisemitism.

27. In the six months that followed the introduction of the new code of conduct, to March 2018, 94% of the fifty-four people accused of antisemitism remained suspended or barred from Labour Party membership. Three of the fifty-four were exonerated.

28. When Jennie Formby became general secretary of the party last year, she appointed a highly-qualified in-house Counsel, as recommended in the Chakrabarti Report.

29. In 2018, Labour almost doubled the size of its staff team handling investigations and dispute processes.

30. Last year, to speed up the handling of antisemitism cases, smaller panels of 3-5 NEC members were established to enable cases to be heard more quickly.

31. Since 2018, every complaint made about antisemitism is allocated its own independent specialist barrister to ensure due process is followed.

32. The entire backlog of cases outstanding upon Jennie Formby becoming General Secretary of the Labour Party was cleared within 6 months of Jennie taking up her post.

33. Since September 2018, Labour has doubled the size of its National Constitutional Committee (NCC) – its senior disciplinary panel – from 11 to 25 members to enable it to process cases more quickly.

34. Under Formby and Labour’s left-run NEC, NCC arranged elections at short notice to ensure the NCC reached its new full capacity without delay.

35. Since later 2018, the NCC routinely convenes a greater number of hearing panels to allow cases to be heard and finalised without delay.

36. In 2018, the NEC established a ‘Procedures Working Group’ to lead reforms in the way disciplinary cases are handled.

37. The NEC adopted the IHRA working definition of antisemitism and all eleven examples of antisemitism attached to it.

38. A rule change agreed at Conference in 2018 means that all serious complaints, including antisemitism, are dealt with nationally to ensure consistency.

39. Last year, Jennie Formby wrote to the admins and moderators of Facebook groups about how they can effectively moderate online spaces and requested that any discriminatory content be reported to the Labour Party for investigation.

40. Since last year, no one outside Labour’s Governance and Legal Unit can be involved in decision-making on antisemitism investigations. This independence allows decisions free from political influence to be taken.

milko
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 From:  william (WILLIAMA)  
 To:  ANT_THOMAS     
42264.59 In reply to 42264.55 
What Milko said.

Journalists such as Tom Bower and Stephen Pollard are virulently right wing and prepared to use their ethnicity to attack Corbyn and anybody else they oppose, Jewish or otherwise. Corbyn's Jewish supporters such as the author Michael Rosen or journalist Michael Segalov are routinely abused and insulted because they don't fall into line. Rosen is somebody who has been told that he is not a 'proper' Jew and Segalov was told on national television that he was a 'self-hating Jew' by Tom Bower. 

It doesn't help that many Labour supporters, fellow travellers and trolls sometimes appear to be incapable of thinking before speaking and keeping their mouths shut. It follows that anything sensible they say goes unreported whereas anything stupid or ill considered is covered by all media outlets alongside a routinely unchallenged right wing commentary. The clown George Galloway is attempting to rejoin the Labour party and interviewed by Sky News he was asked about antisemitism. Not only did he dismiss the whole issue as 'black ops', he went on to describe it as 'Goebellian', a choice of words so head-smackingly stupid that it almost defies belief. 

Yes, the Labour party does have a problem. There are antisemites and there are stupid people by the fistful. It is not and never will be remotely on the same scale as the anti-semitism and racism of all sorts within the Tory party and their supporters even though the Labour party is nearly five times larger. A huge amount has been done to address the problem. This will never be properly reported. On a pragmatic level, the problem is the press which is almost wholly happy to support and amplify the accusations. On a moral level it is a problem that it exists and Labour should never stop addressing it.
never trust a man in a blue trench coat, never drive a car when you're dead
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 From:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)  
 To:  ANT_THOMAS     
42264.60 In reply to 42264.55 
My stance remains the same until the evidence changes.

I try not to waste my life with the news, so I just did this search: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=labour+r%3Auk&iar=news

The first seemingly relevant article was this one: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-denies-wide-scale-bullying-in-the-labour-party-a4074506.html

It mentions Ian Austin posted a full statement on his website, so I find that here: http://www.ianaustin.co.uk/i_have_taken_the_difficult_decision_to_leave_the_labour_party

There's a lot of rhetoric, so if I'm missing anything substantial you'll have to point it out me, but this seems to be the crux of Ian's statement:

"Jeremy Corbyn and the people around him have turned a mainstream party into something very different. He has spent his entire political career working with and supporting all sorts of extremists, and in some cases terrorists and antisemites. I always thought he was unfit to lead the Labour Party and I certainly think he is unfit to lead our country."

Um, yeah. :/

The quote Milko posted is also a lot of waffle, but it does have actual statistics. It suggests Jeremy Corbyn's Labour have dealt with anti-semitism from 2 MPs and 60 party members. Can you show proof of ignored complaints or unhandled issues? How many complaints have the Conservatives received and what was their outcome? What about the Lib Dems?

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 From:  milko  
 To:  william (WILLIAMA)     
42264.61 In reply to 42264.59 
yeah, these opportunistic MPs like Austin and Umunna are happy to use spurious antisemitism accusations to attack the leadership, largely (entirely, even?) to further their agenda of turning the party back to the right. I mean, that's the party they joined under Blair et al, they have the right to try and change it but this is a really bad way to go about it and diminishes actual genuine efforts to combat antisemitism. And of course, the press and many people in power are desperate to avoid Corbyn becoming PM so they gleefully amplify it. Horrible situation.
milko
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 From:  CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)   
 To:  ALL
42264.62 
Looking like May and her deal's geese are cooked...
“I believe real life and the internet differ.”
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 From:  Manthorp  
 To:  CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)      
42264.63 In reply to 42264.62 
It looks that way, though the numbers are still fluid and the ERG have yet to come to a collective decision.  Brextremists will be weighing up a half-assed (in their terms) Brexit against the possibility of a softer Brexit yet, or even no Brexit at all, if it's voted down and there's a successful vote for an extension.

If she's voted down this evening, she's toast.  Any normal person would resign if that happened but she adamantly believes in a responsibility to public service (it's a vicar's child thing. I speak from a position of knowledge). She also believes, erroneously, that she's the best person for the job.  So she will have to pushed. The Ides of March are approaching.

"We all have flaws, and mine is being wicked."
James Thurber, The Thirteen Clocks 1951
 
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 From:  william (WILLIAMA)  
 To:  Manthorp     
42264.64 In reply to 42264.63 
Quote: 
she adamantly believes in a responsibility to public service
I can't help thinking that this is an exceptionally generous assessment. I'd offer a psychological explanation myself: she's dangerously controlling and stubborn. People who believe in a responsibility to public service tend not to make commitments and then renege on them as readily as she does. Looking at her history, acting on her nasty little prejudices as Home Secretary and then terrified of her party's right wing over Brexit, to me she looks more like  the School Bully's best mate rather than an archetypal Vicar's kid.
never trust a man in a blue trench coat, never drive a car when you're dead
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 From:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)  
 To:  Manthorp     
42264.65 In reply to 42264.63 
> If she's voted down this evening, she's toast.

By 149 votes (38:62). Time to heat the beans then?

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 From:  Manthorp  
 To:  william (WILLIAMA)     
42264.66 In reply to 42264.64 
I agree, but I don't think that the two explanations are mutually exclusive. Dedication to public* service has an strong element of arrogance about it: it often involves the assumption that one's values & aspirations and those of the constituency one serves are closely aligned. And, of course, one's values and aspirations are often informed, consciously or not, by one's own self-interest and prejudices.

It's not uncommon (and often not wrong) for those dedicated to service to give the public what they think is good for them, rather than what they want.

*I mistyped 'pubic', then shuddered at my error.

"We all have flaws, and mine is being wicked."
James Thurber, The Thirteen Clocks 1951
 
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 From:  Manthorp  
 To:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)     
42264.67 In reply to 42264.65 
We can only hope.

Of course, there's a certain element of 'be careful what you wish for' about what happens if she goes. Who, out of this current government of all the talentless, would be a better alternative?  The only one I can think of - who also has a snowball's chance of being voted in by the Tories - is Amber Rudd: and I say that only as I would, deciding which animal's shit would be better in my sandwich.

"We all have flaws, and mine is being wicked."
James Thurber, The Thirteen Clocks 1951
 
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 From:  william (WILLIAMA)  
 To:  Manthorp     
42264.68 In reply to 42264.67 
Absolutely. That's a big problem with the current Tory crop. I do try to think outside my lefty bubble and look for positives in some of them. Clearly, I am never going to have any sympathy for Rees-Mogg, Johnson, Chope, Cleverly, Fox, Leadsom etc. but I see Amber Rudd saying a few honest things about Universal Credit and I remind myself that she has been strong enough to take the bullet for May in the Home Office, and earlier in the election debate. Then I start to wonder about her role as Home Secretary and just how clean her hands really are. Political memories are short, but it really is only a year ago that Amber Rudd was facing criticism for her failure to tackle knife crime and her efforts to justify savage cuts to the police force. She may not have the obvious vanity and gross personal ambition of Sajid Javid, but her failures add up to complicity. 

With her off my list, I can't think of one who is fit to be PM, or even one who actually shows any interest at all in public service rather than personal enrichment and acting out dirty little urges and prejudices.

(edited shocking grammar)
never trust a man in a blue trench coat, never drive a car when you're dead
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 From:  milko  
 To:  william (WILLIAMA)     
42264.69 In reply to 42264.68 
ultimately, any tory is gonna hang their hat on the austerity peg, so I find it impossible to see any of them other than disastrous. Even the ones who centrist types see some hope in (like TINGE types such as "Soubz") have a voting record that reveals their actual deeds do not even nearly match their lip-service to humane policy.
milko
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 From:  william (WILLIAMA)  
 To:  milko     
42264.70 In reply to 42264.69 
I'm sad to say I agree. I did say that political memories are short and I suppose there's also the rosy tint of passing time, but much as I loathed Thatcher and most of her ilk, and her successors, at least I could see that some of them (though obviously not many) were doing what they did because they believed it was for the public good. With the Tory party since the turn of the century, I see a resurgence of entitlement, a profound hatred of the idea of public provision and a horrible willingness to flirt with extreme right-wing populism. The predominant economic model of government is not to sustain the nation in any way but to normalise the process of driving wealth up to the rich and risk down to the poor. Banks and "Captains" of finance are no longer risk-takers; they will be bailed out if things go wrong.
never trust a man in a blue trench coat, never drive a car when you're dead
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 From:  milko  
 To:  william (WILLIAMA)     
42264.71 In reply to 42264.70 
too true. My fear is that the current press are only too happy to misreport all this, and the public seem quite content to read it and accept lies at face value even when they contradict what the politician said earlier, later, was happening right next to them during the interview, pretty much anything really. Ugh.
milko
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 From:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)  
 To:  Manthorp     
42264.72 In reply to 42264.67 
Probably a bird - liquids go down quicker - or maybe a pet rodent since it's less likely to overpower the cheese and ketchup.

According to Wikipedia/YouGov, the most recent (July 2018) Conservative party member poll has top three as Jacob Rees-Mogg, Ruth Davidson, Sajid Javid. Ambed Rudd is one of three marked as N/A, but it doesn't explain why.

Given that TM won the no confidence vote relatively comfortably, she can't be officially pushed before December, right? So she'd need to want to pass the chalice to someone specific to not stubbornly hold on?

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 From:  ANT_THOMAS  
 To:  milko     
42264.73 In reply to 42264.71 
The news cycle is far too quick right now. Resulting in there being very little risk to lying. There's far more news and outrage about something else before there's time to expose a liar.
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