War & Politics"Brexit" -ish

 

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 From:  Very Stable Genius (DSMITHHFX)  
 To:  ALL
42084.1 
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We now seem to be in an odd position where Northern Ireland is getting a post-Brexit guarantee its lead political party does not want (see 1.13pm), while Scotland is being denied the same guarantee even thought its lead political party is in favour.

This grows curioser by the hour

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2017/dec/04/theresa-may-heads-to-brussels-hoping-to-conclude-phase-one-of-brexit-talks-politics-live

“It’s amazing to think that the world’s most powerful man managed to press the wrong button”
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 From:  ANT_THOMAS  
 To:  Very Stable Genius (DSMITHHFX)     
42084.2 In reply to 42084.1 
It seems none of the Brexit ringleaders actually considered how important the NI/Eire border is along with the Good Friday Agreement. To be honest, they didn't really consider any actual issues.
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 From:  Very Stable Genius (DSMITHHFX)  
 To:  ANT_THOMAS     
42084.3 In reply to 42084.2 
The odds of it being delayed/neutered/reversed appear to be climbing.
“It’s amazing to think that the world’s most powerful man managed to press the wrong button”
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 From:  Manthorp  
 To:  Very Stable Genius (DSMITHHFX)     
42084.4 In reply to 42084.1 
Brexit has been a firework display of paradoxes and oxymorons, and I have a strong sense that it's only the lead-in to the grand finale.

"We all have flaws, and mine is being wicked."
James Thurber, The Thirteen Clocks 1951
 
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 From:  milko  
 To:  Very Stable Genius (DSMITHHFX)     
42084.5 In reply to 42084.1 
It's almost entertaining. Just about every entirely predictable "project fear" Remain warning has come about or is soon to come about, meanwhile the people in charge of this shit for the UK act like it's all a big surprise and descend further into humiliating incompetence. Meanwhile most of our newspapers work to deflect the blame onto whatever external cause they can think of, and few of the rest report it with much criticism. Sigh.
milko
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 From:  Harry (HARRYN)  
 To:  ALL
42084.6 
Sorry for completely not understanding this - How does the border with Ireland have anything to do with Brexit?    Isn't Ireland part of the UK and the laws are the same?
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 From:  ANT_THOMAS  
 To:  Harry (HARRYN)     
42084.7 In reply to 42084.6 
No.

The island in question has two countries - Ireland and Northern Ireland.
Northern Ireland is part of the UK.
Ireland is a totally different, entirely independent country that is also part of the EU.

Due to the history of Ireland/NI, the long conflict and the border between the two we have the Good Friday Agreement. The GFA effectively brought peace to Northern Ireland, and part of the GFA was that there should be no hard border between North and South.

If the UK leaves the EU as planned, along with leaving the Single Market and removing the right of freedom of movement it would in theory require a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland (UK), as Northern Ireland would not be in the EU and therefore new border customs, immigration etc rules would apply, meaning a hard border.

That would break the GFA and put the Peace Process in jeopardy.
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 From:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)  
 To:  ANT_THOMAS     
42084.8 In reply to 42084.7 
> Ireland is a totally different, entirely independent country

Ireland was partitioned in 1922, it had been a single country since at least 1542, with a shared culture that extends back long before that.

Also, saying "Northern Ireland is part of the UK" is over-simplified - not all the laws in Northern Ireland are the same as in Great Britain, (and are likely becoming even more different as this mess unfolds).

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 From:  ANT_THOMAS  
 To:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)     
42084.9 In reply to 42084.8 
But it's correct, Northern Ireland is part of the UK. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. I didn't say it was part of Great Britain or had the same laws, but part of the UK which is an irrefutable fact.

And Ireland is an entirely different country, irrelevant of culture and history. Ireland ≠ Northern Ireland. Different government, different laws, different currency. Different.
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 From:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)  
 To:  ANT_THOMAS     
42084.10 In reply to 42084.9 
You were replying to a post containing "Isn't Ireland part of the UK and the laws are the same?"

GB and NI are the two parts of the UK. GB and NI do not have exactly the same laws.

> And Ireland is an entirely different country,

No, they are currently distinct countries, but their differences are neither "entire" nor "total" - Ireland was a single country within living memory and there is significant support in RoI, NI, and GB for a return to a united Ireland. Presenting them as completely separate entities is misleading.

> Different government, different laws, different currency.

Scotland has all three of those.

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 From:  ANT_THOMAS  
 To:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)     
42084.11 In reply to 42084.10 
Remember Ireland ≠ Northern Ireland.

"Isn't Ireland part of the UK and the laws are the same?"

The answer is No, because Ireland is not part of the UK.

No, they are currently distinct countries, but their differences are neither "entire" nor "total". You could easily say that about any pair of bordered countries, culturally similar the closer to the border. But still different and separate countries.
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 From:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)  
 To:  ANT_THOMAS     
42084.12 In reply to 42084.11 

The answer is "Ireland is a divided land with only 6 of its 32 counties being in the UK, the other 26 counties being an independent Republic since 1922.

Whilst Northern Ireland is part of the UK and there are shared UK laws, Northern Ireland has an independent legal system to England and Wales, (as does Scotland).

Northern Ireland mostly voted to remain in the EU, but if the UK leaves the EU it brings up the issue of an EU border and potentially re-ignites the Troubles between NI, RoI and GB, which the 1998 Good Friday Agreement ended.

Plus (stuff about DUP)"

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 From:  ANT_THOMAS  
 To:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)     
42084.13 In reply to 42084.12 
Europe is a divided land that at many points in time had different borders between different regions, that doesn't mean we currently define all the separate countries as once the same or part of others. We care what the borders are NOW.

Date of split, culture and the range of law across the UK are irrelevant.

Northern Ireland is not Ireland.
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 From:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)  
 To:  ANT_THOMAS     
42084.14 In reply to 42084.13 
Northern Ireland is Ireland. That's why it's called Northern /Ireland/ (Shit, didn't see that coming!)

The reason this thread exists is because the separation is barely settled and the prospect of an EU border is stirring things up.

Why no discussion of the England/France border? Because those two are completely different countries with no recent ties.

Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland are not completely different and this is directly relevant to why NI does not have exactly the same laws as GB.

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 From:  ANT_THOMAS  
 To:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)     
42084.15 In reply to 42084.14 
Northern Ireland as part of the UK is a separate country to Ireland.

For things like this I tend to go by what the United Nations defines as Member States, not BP on the internet.
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 From:  Dave!!  
 To:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)     
42084.16 In reply to 42084.14 
Well, Northern Ireland isn't the Republic of Ireland, otherwise it'd be called the Republic of Ireland. It exists because of the pro-unionists in that area of Ireland that wished to remain part of the UK.

The simple fact is that at this present time, the majority of people in Northern Ireland wish to remain in the UK. The whole point of the Good Friday agreement was that the dispute as to whether Northern Ireland should become part of the Republic of Ireland, or remain as part of the UK should be settled via political means rather than via terrorism. Yes, it's a thorny issue to many, but disputes should be settled peacefully and via democratic means.

Territorially, it's a similar situation to Scotland. Yes, it has its own devolved powers, its own parliament, and a political party that would wish to see it separate from the UK. But from a democratic perspective, Sinn Fein have been unable to secure a Northern Irish majority that would allow them to call a referendum on seceding from the UK.

If anything, Scotland has become closer to leaving the UK due to the SNP having a majority in Scotland and holding that referendum on leaving the UK. However in that instance, the voters decided they'd prefer to remain part of the UK. It's the people of Scotland that have to make that choice, not the choice of the rest of the UK. In much the same way that it's the opinion of the people of Northern Ireland that matters the most regarding their future, not the opinion of those from the ROI.

Hence for NI, until the populace votes in favour of a party that wishes to leave the UK (and merge with the ROI), and then the populace votes in favour of leaving the UK at a referendum, they are part of the UK by choice. And at the end of the day, choice of the population is what matters.

And as long as NI wishes to remain part of the UK, the details of the Good Friday agreement that settled those tensions (to a degree) and provided peace to Northern Ireland are very important to observe. And of course, Brexit threatens those details.
---

 
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 From:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)  
 To:  ANT_THOMAS     
42084.17 In reply to 42084.15 
I can't work out if you're being thicker than Trigger and Trump together or are thinking that you're a terrific troll.

Northern Ireland is a country that is part of the UK.
Republic of Ireland is a country that is not part of the UK.
Both NI and RoI are parts of Ireland.
A united Ireland existed for a really long time.
RoI and NI have more in common than England and Wales, or England and Scotland, or England and Australia, or USA and Canada, or Czechia and Slovakia, or North Korea and South Korea, or lots of other places because they're really similar with significant people wanting them back together as one country.
Clarifying that RoI and NI are different countries is important.
Claiming that RoI and NI are entirely different is ignorant.
I'm cooking a pizza that is going to be really tasty.
Pretending that current borders are all that matters is short-sighted especially in today's world.
Pretending that current borders are all that matters when the discussion is focused on defining the EU border and given that NI is one of three regions which voted to remain in the EU is like trying to look at your tongue without a mirror or lenses or any other means of remote vision.
There UN doesn't define "Member States" as a proper noun so the capitals are erroneous.
The inverse is true for the Internet.
António Guterres completely agrees entirely with everything I've written, so dún na béal and pòg mo thòin.
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 From:  ANT_THOMAS  
 To:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)     
42084.18 In reply to 42084.17 
No, you're just not getting the point.

Ireland = Republic of Ireland
Ireland ≠ Republic of Ireland + Northern Ireland

The Republic of Ireland is officially named Ireland.

If someone says Ireland, they should be talking about the country on that island that is mainly south and west of the border.

And if someone asks if Ireland is part of the UK, the answer is quite simply no.
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 From:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)  
 To:  ANT_THOMAS     
42084.19 In reply to 42084.18 
You know when there are country fetes with a stall where you guess the number of sweets in a jar? Well how about you guess how many times you can be wrong and if you get it right you win.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/ireland
noun uk ​ /ˈaɪə.lənd/ us ​ /ˈaɪr.lənd/ also Eire
an island containing the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/ireland
Ireland (ˈaɪələnd ) noun
1. an island off NW Europe: part of the British Isles, separated from Britain by the North Channel, the Irish Sea, and St George's Channel; contains large areas of peat bog, with mountains that rise over 900 m (3000 ft) in the southwest and several large lakes. It was conquered by England in the 16th and early 17th centuries and ruled as a dependency until 1801, when it was united with Great Britain until its division in 1921 into the Irish Free State and Northern Ireland
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ireland
Ire·land (īr′lənd)
1. An island in the northern Atlantic Ocean west of Great Britain, divided between the independent Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland, which is a part of the United Kingdom. The island was invaded by Celts c. 500 bc and converted to Christianity by Saint Patrick in the fifth century ad. Ireland came under English control in the 17th century and was joined with Great Britain by the Act of Union in 1801. After the Easter Rebellion (1916) and a war of independence (1919-1921), the island was split into the Irish Free State (now the Republic of Ireland) and Northern Ireland, which is still part of the United Kingdom.
https://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/ireland
Ire‧land /ˈaɪələnd $ ˈaɪər-/ a large island to the west of Great Britain, from which it is separated by the Irish Sea. It is divided politically into Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. Northern Ireland is part of the UK, and many people there belong to the Protestant religion. The Republic of Ireland has been an independent state since 1921, and most people there belong to the Roman Catholic religion. Ireland, especially the Republic of Ireland, is known for its beautiful green countryside, and is sometimes called the Emerald Isle. Many great writers in English come from Ireland, including Oscar Wilde, James Joyce, George Bernard Shaw, and Samuel Beckett. → see also Republic of Ireland, the
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Ireland
geographical name | Ire·land | \ ˈī(-ə)r-lənd \
1 or Latin Hibernia \hī-ˈbər-nē-ə\ island in western Europe in the Atlantic, one of the British Isles area 32,052 square miles (83,015 square kilometers)
Note: The island of Ireland is divided between the republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/ireland
Ireland proper noun
1 An island of the British Isles, lying west of Great Britain. Approximately four fifths of the area of Ireland forms the Republic of Ireland, with the remaining one fifth forming Northern Ireland.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland
This article is about the island in Europe. For the sovereign state of the same name, see Republic of Ireland. For the part of the United Kingdom, see Northern Ireland.
https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=ireland
Assuming "ireland" is a country | Use as an island or an administrative division or a given name or a surname instead
:)
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 From:  ANT_THOMAS  
 To:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)     
42084.20 In reply to 42084.19 
"Ireland is divided between the Republic of Ireland (officially named Ireland), which covers five-sixths of the island, and Northern Ireland"

OK, so we're both right since the Republic of Ireland is called Ireland.

But to say Ireland is part of the UK is wrong. Ireland is not part of the UK, and that was the question.
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