HardwareAV questions sub/amp-me-do

  

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 From:  graphitone   13 Oct 2014 11:03 
 To:  ALL 1 of 19 
41241.1 
Howdy all.

Got a question for the hive mind. I'm again planning and replanning the AV stuff in my living room. I want to be able to stream audio (FLAC files) and ripped DVDs and Blu-rays from a NAS (most likely going to be a Synology) through to my TV and amp.

The amp I'm wanting is the Yamaha RXV675 as it can do the audio streaming, but I can't find anywhere in the specs that it does video.

I want to be able to play the 5.1 from the video files and DVDAs I've got ripped, so do I need something in between the amp and the NAS if they're all DLNA?

The TV and RXV675 both support ARC - I have no idea how good that technology is, but presumably it'll negate the need for an intermediary box. Does using it produce any discernable delay?

Also, I'd like to use the sub for the low end when playing stereo files.

From looking at the manual I should be able to run speaker cable from the main speaker outputs to the sub. However, how would that then affect listening to 5.1 audio? The sub'd be getting a signal from the sub woofer out on the amp as well as the speaker outputs. Would that bugger things up sound wise? Hmm, could I just run the sub from the main speakers? <more research needed>


 


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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)   13 Oct 2014 12:57 
 To:  graphitone      2 of 19 
41241.2 In reply to 41241.1 
I don't understand any of your post but I'm going to take a guess and say yes. Or perhaps no.
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 From:  graphitone   13 Oct 2014 13:17 
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)      3 of 19 
41241.3 In reply to 41241.2 
 :-((

What are you, the ambivalence elf?


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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)   13 Oct 2014 14:16 
 To:  graphitone      4 of 19 
41241.4 In reply to 41241.3 
Maybe.
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 From:  graphitone   13 Oct 2014 14:58 
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)      5 of 19 
41241.5 In reply to 41241.4 
 :-Y


 


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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)   13 Oct 2014 15:15 
 To:  graphitone      6 of 19 
41241.6 In reply to 41241.5 
 (nod)  (wrong)
 
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 From:  graphitone   13 Oct 2014 15:50 
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)      7 of 19 
41241.7 In reply to 41241.6 
 (frown) Stop messing with my tiny mind.

I'm off to ask Serg.


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 From:  Serg (NUKKLEAR)   13 Oct 2014 18:40 
 To:  graphitone      8 of 19 
41241.8 In reply to 41241.1 
I *will* reply more, possibly either when I'm on the train (unless I'm "sardining", damn London trains) or later, when I'm at home. Or maybe tomorrow.

The quick answer is maybe, but you might be better off with a streaming media player of sorts, like a WDTV or Mede8er or something like that.
- ARC basically uses the HDMI cable between the AVR and TV to not only do the usual thing of audio & video from the receiver to the TV, but allows audio back from the TV to the receiver as well (you seem to know this already anyway)
- DLNA != streaming media off a share
- DLNA sometimes re-encodes material before sending it to the playing device, depending (almost entirely, I believe) on what capabilities the player advertises and what the source device is configured to do; so sometimes the source may decide that it's better to convert to MP3 or WAV or PCM or RAW or something, which is annoyingly hard to control. If it needs to re-encode video, you can imagine that it will definitely struggle with higher bitrates, depending on the actual crunching power of the source device.

In my opinion, UPnP / DLNA are a pain to work with if you want to actually control them, so what I have is a Windows server with a network share, which is accessed by a Mede8er MED600X3D; that means there's no transcoding or configuration jiggery-pokery, and the player just streams the original file. My only problem right now is that the Mede8er is a little buggy and that the Windows share struggles to keep up with 30GB+ BluRay rips, so I might move the whole thing to Linux and NFS, that combo has always tended to benchmark better in terms of throughput capabilities. And no, it's not the network - it's all wired at 1Gbps...
[...Insert Brain Here...]
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 From:  af (CAER)   13 Oct 2014 18:44 
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)      9 of 19 
41241.9 In reply to 41241.4 
Nothing like ambiguity.
andyf.me logo
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 From:  koswix   13 Oct 2014 19:31 
 To:  af (CAER)      10 of 19 
41241.10 In reply to 41241.9 
Or is there? 

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If Feds call you and say something bad on me, it may prove what I said are truth, they are afraid of it.
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 From:  Serg (NUKKLEAR)   13 Oct 2014 19:41 
 To:  graphitone      11 of 19 
41241.11 In reply to 41241.1 
In terms of using the sub, it's a little more complicated.
A 5.1 sound track contains five full bandwidth channels (3Hz to 20kHz if I remember right) plus one limited bandwidth LFE channel (3Hz - 120Hz). Since pretty much no one has full range speakers and sound is effectively impossible to localise at 120Hz or lower, an AV Processor will redirect not only the LFE channel but also additional information from the other channels to the sub. The cross over where this happens is set in the Processor and can be changed to cater for surround speakers which can cope with varying depths - but for example, THX say that this should be set to 80Hz when using THX certified speakers. This is not a hard cut, a carefully calculated function curve is used - incidentally, this function usually means that sealed speakers and subs actually integrate better.

So basically your sub would play the entire LFE channel, plus whatever is redirected from the other channels, whether that's two or five or seven or whatever.

The benefits of this are quite a few, the main ones being:
- you'll actually hear the bass from the surround channels, since most speakers would be incapable of playing much below 40-80Hz anyway
- less load on the Processor's amps, as bass usually requires more air to be shifted; now that it's redirected to the sub it has an easier job
- your surround channels will probably sound cleaner since they're not struggling to render those lows

With stereo music, there's no LFE channels, so Processors will do the same as above and apply a crossover and redirect to the sub below that crossover frequency. However, to appease the purists, most manufacturers also include a direct mode which won't apply any crossovers or bass redirection, and often none of the room correction algorithms either. On Yamaha that's called Pure Direct, and it will just use whatever channels your original source material has. Obviously if the source material has a .1 channel then that will still go to the sub.

Now, if you do that but you still want to hook up the sub, firstly you need a sub with high level (amplified, or speaker level) inputs. You then hook up cables from your L and R speakers to these, and manually set the high level crossover on the sub. It's a game of trial and error in this case, though it should be near the speakers' low -3dB output. You might also need to play with the phase setting on the sub to better match what's reaching your listening position.

There are subs which can accept pre-amp (non amplified) inputs for both channels as well, it all depends on your gear. If you tell me what the speakers and sub are I'm happy to help.

As you can imagine, it gets a little messy if you have both the normal LFE connected between the sub and the Processor and also high level inputs from the speakers to the sub...
[...Insert Brain Here...]
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 From:  graphitone   13 Oct 2014 20:56 
 To:  Serg (NUKKLEAR)      12 of 19 
41241.12 In reply to 41241.11 
Thanks dude. I knew I'd get a considered response from someone at some point! <glares at Xen>.
 
Quote: 
As you can imagine, it gets a little messy if you have both the normal LFE connected between the sub and the Processor and also high level inputs from the speakers to the sub...
^This. That's the situation I could have. How bad does 'messy' sound? I have these (in maple) (with added what hifi stars :/ ):


They're Acoustic Energy Aegis Evo 3s. The sub has the high level inputs. Manual's here.


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 From:  Chris (CHRISSS)   13 Oct 2014 21:02 
 To:  graphitone      13 of 19 
41241.13 In reply to 41241.12 
I haven't read the rest of the thread but my Denon amp has a +main in the speaker setup which shoves some of that bass down to the subwoofer from the front speakers as well as the LFE track.
Me
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 From:  graphitone   13 Oct 2014 21:40 
 To:  Chris (CHRISSS)      14 of 19 
41241.14 In reply to 41241.13 
How's it cabled up?


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 From:  fixrman   14 Oct 2014 01:50 
 To:  graphitone      15 of 19 
41241.15 In reply to 41241.12 
Nice speaks.
 
  Did you ever see such a messed up situation in your whole life, son?
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 From:  Chris (CHRISSS)   14 Oct 2014 07:22 
 To:  graphitone      16 of 19 
41241.16 In reply to 41241.14 
NAS to Pi, Pi to HDMI splitter, splitter to TV/amp. Amp to speakers and pre out for sub.

Just bread Serg's post. Now I'm not really sure what +main is for as the subwoofer will get some of the bass from the speakers below the crossover anyway. I just have it set to normal.

I think the +main is for when the speakers are set to Large and the lower end is still sent to the sub.
Me
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 From:  CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)   14 Oct 2014 21:46 
 To:  graphitone      17 of 19 
41241.17 In reply to 41241.12 

----
"Ninety percent of Americans use the Internet. The other ten percent use the banjo."
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 From:  fixrman   18 Oct 2014 04:29 
 To:  graphitone      18 of 19 
41241.18 In reply to 41241.1 
I have to stay out of this thread. I am an audiophile wannabe and I can't afford it.  :'-( 
 
  Did you ever see such a messed up situation in your whole life, son?
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 From:  ANT_THOMAS   20 Oct 2014 10:14 
 To:  ALL 19 of 19 
41241.19 
I still need to pick up a reasonable 5.1 set. I'm currently working with 5.0. Or I just get a sub.
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