War & Politicsobama's speech

 

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 From:  fixrman   
 To:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)     
41193.12 In reply to 41193.9 
If you don't follow American politics, what do you think you know about chads?
 
  Did you ever see such a messed up situation in your whole life, son?
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 From:  Lucy (X3N0PH0N)  
 To:  fixrman      
41193.13 In reply to 41193.11 
More by historical American foreign and domestic policy/practise.

The Ferguson stuff was above the baseline, for example.
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 From:  Lucy (X3N0PH0N)  
 To:  fixrman      
41193.14 In reply to 41193.11 
(The most pressingly stupid thing the US does currently, to my mind, is incarcerating a far greater proportion (by like 3x) of its people than any other comparable western democratic state. And imprisoning a statistically indefensible proportion of its non-white citizenry, often with longer sentences than whites get etc. etc.. If people started caring about that and that became a news story then I'd certainly be interested)
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 From:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)  
 To:  fixrman      
41193.15 In reply to 41193.10 
quote: fixrman

I thought he was so highly regarded over there, early on? Guess the bloom fell off the rose quickly.

You're assuming that I ever regarded him. I can only speak for me, there may be millions out here who worship the ground he walks on; but I'm not one, nor have I ever been.

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 From:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)  
 To:  fixrman      
41193.16 In reply to 41193.12 
quote: fixrman
If you don't follow American politics, what do you think you know about chads?

My understanding is that's how the retards in Florida voted Geedubbya in.

Clarification: the position of most powerful leader in the West was donated to a buffoon on the basis that Floridians couldn't properly punch a hole in paper. At least that how (I recall) it was told at the time.

But that's the problem with democracy. Most of the time it's swung by bottom feeders who should just be doped up to the eyeballs and stuck in front of lobotomy TV rather than being allowed to do something vaguely responsible like vote. Or, worse, socialists.

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 From:  fixrman   
 To:  Lucy (X3N0PH0N)     
41193.17 In reply to 41193.13 
Ferguson is not a good example of American political practice, it is a law enforcement issue. It is an example of nothing really until the whole story is revealed. I live a lot closer and have followed some of it. We are not getting the full story by any measure and neither are you.
 
  Did you ever see such a messed up situation in your whole life, son?
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 From:  fixrman   
 To:  Lucy (X3N0PH0N)     
41193.18 In reply to 41193.14 
Well, first off we are not a democratic state, we are a Federal presidential Constitutional Republic comprised of 50 states, but you are not alone in making that mistake. Most of America does. Although we are moving more and more to Democracy, that is not our political model.

What country are you comparing the U.S. to? Not that I don't disagree with your assessment of our rates of imprisonment for blacks (I didn't think you meant any other minority) I'd like to know the comparison then I will give some opinion on why I think you are right on the imprisonment bit.
 
  Did you ever see such a messed up situation in your whole life, son?
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 From:  fixrman   
 To:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)     
41193.19 In reply to 41193.16 
Florida was a debacle as far as the voting goes, but point in fact that whole hanging chad/miscast vote bit had happened before(1996, 14,000 votes). If people had just taken a few seconds more to actually look at the ballot, they'd have voted properly. They also could have asked for a new ballot before leaving the voting boot. It was however a poorly designed ballot.

Adding to the maddening controversy was the fact that a Democrat, Theresa LePore,  designed the ballot and it was approved by both sides.
 
Quote: 
But that's the problem with democracy. Most of the time it's swung by bottom feeders who should just be doped up to the eyeballs and stuck in front of lobotomy TV rather than being allowed to do something vaguely responsible like vote. Or, worse, socialists.
Are you including the population of Merry Olde England in that assessment, or is that something you reserve solely for Americans. Actually, Canada and Britain are considered more democratic than the U.S. is. We vote for a president, but a president is not necessarily elected by popular vote, it is decided by Electoral votes. So a guy like obama, who exploited inherent weaknesses in that system of election by concentrating on population centers to gain electoral votes, gets in power.
 
Quote: 
the position of most powerful leader in the West was donated to a buffoon

As opposed to the buffoon in there now? Was there ever a POTUS you liked?

The alternative of course is to not vote which is ridiculous in my opinion, worse even than uninformed voting.
 

 
  Did you ever see such a messed up situation in your whole life, son?
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 From:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)  
 To:  fixrman      
41193.20 In reply to 41193.19 
quote: fixrman
 
Are you including the population of Merry Olde England in that assessment, or is that something you reserve solely for Americans. Actually, Canada and Britain are considered more democratic than the U.S. is. We vote for a president, but a president is not necessarily elected by popular vote, it is decided by Electoral votes. So a guy like obama, who exploited inherent weaknesses in that system of election by concentrating on population centers to gain electoral votes, gets in power.
 
Quote: 
the position of most powerful leader in the West was donated to a buffoon

As opposed to the buffoon in there now? Was there ever a POTUS you liked?

I was particularly thinking of the population of Merrie Olde England (and its nearest neighbours).

POTUS that I liked? I guess Abe was pretty decent. Clinton...but she's not been elected yet.

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 From:  Lucy (X3N0PH0N)  
 To:  fixrman      
41193.21 In reply to 41193.17 
The crazy structure of law enforcement is a political issue as is the militarisation of the police. But I was more referring to the ineptitude with which the political class responded to the situation (or in Obama's case singularly failed to, which is fucking weird for a second term president for whom the whole Ferguson thing must touch on issues of importance).

Prison stuff: You're not a direct democracy of course, but you are a representative democracy, same as we are (we're a constitutional monarchy).

Numbers here. The US figure (707 per 100k) excludes lots of classes of prisoners which are included in other countries' figures and still manages to dwarf the numbers for any comparable country. England and Wales are on 148. The highest western democracy with no special circumstances besides the US (based on a quick scan, I may have missed sommat) is New Zealand on 183.

The causes of this problem are of course manifold. A few obvious ones being disenfrranchisement of minorities (it's not just blacks that are overrepresented in prisons, also hispanics), gun laws, popularity of 'tough on crime' stances with electorates, the fact that minorities are less likely to vote.

But I think the real clincher is the fact that many of your prisons are run as businesses and those businesses are owned, ultimately, by politicians, lawmakers and those with lobbying influence.

It's a humanitarian crime that dwarfs anything China, Russia or NK are up to and yet it goes largely uncommented upon.
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 From:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)  
 To:  Lucy (X3N0PH0N)     
41193.22 In reply to 41193.21 
quote: X3N0PH0N
the fact that minorities are less likely to vote.

What's stopping them?

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 From:  ANT_THOMAS  
 To:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)     
41193.23 In reply to 41193.22 
They're all in prison?

But seriously, nothing will be stopping them. Just I imagine feeling disenfranchised is the reason they don't.
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 From:  Lucy (X3N0PH0N)  
 To:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)     
41193.24 In reply to 41193.22 
What Ant said.
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 From:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)  
 To:  ANT_THOMAS     
41193.25 In reply to 41193.23 
Fair point. But the can hardly complain when they're not represented, can they?

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 From:  ANT_THOMAS  
 To:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)     
41193.26 In reply to 41193.25 
I guess it then comes down to saying that none of the options represent them.

Which sends you to the next option, stand yourself then? I can only imagine that is incredibly difficult (read: impossible) because of the prohibitively high cost of entering US politics.
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 From:  fixrman   
 To:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)     
41193.27 In reply to 41193.20 
Quote: 
Clinton...but she's not been elected yet.

Now that's comedy. Basically the fact you like Clinton shows that you are not well informed at all about American politics. We already had one failed experiment, the America people don't need to suffer under another one. The PIAPS is probably more corrupt than Johnson was and is morally bankrupt. Perhaps look into her past before you make a judgement on her. The fact that she is female should not make a difference to you, at least in the sense of making historical strides. A female president is not necessarily a Bad Thing for America, except for that female. I am not sure she even is a woman.
 

 
  Did you ever see such a messed up situation in your whole life, son?
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 From:  CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)  
 To:  fixrman      
41193.28 In reply to 41193.27 
Hillary Clinton's a nasty piece of work, always has been.

----
"Ninety percent of Americans use the Internet. The other ten percent use the banjo."
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 From:  cynicoid  
 To:  ALL
41193.29 
I just go along with the expert, unbiased views of Rupert Murdoch and Channel 4 comedians.
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 From:  fixrman   
 To:  Lucy (X3N0PH0N)     
41193.30 In reply to 41193.21 
Quote: 
But I was more referring to the ineptitude with which the political class responded to the situation (or in Obama's case singularly failed to, which is fucking weird for a second term president for whom the whole Ferguson thing must touch on issues of importance).

What's even more weird is the lack of crticism for the obama administration; if George Bush or any other Republican had been POTUS, the media wailings and criticisms would be loud and long. Look at how the media criticised GWB for Katrina, when in fact, although the Feds could have done more, it was really the local, State governments that failed to act and people largely did not evacuate even though they should have.

GWB went on TV, nationally broadcast, and called the storm a dangerous Category Five hurricane, calling for the people of the Gulf Coast communities to put their safety and their families safety above all else and move to safe ground. Bush had already spoken to Ray Nagin who was central to the problems NO. Nagin, failed to implement an evacuation plan until less than a day before Katrina hit. There were parking lots full of buses that could have been used for evacuation, but Nagin was worried about insurance and a shortage of bus drivers. Nagin is going to jail for corruption in relation to Katrina rebuilding. Although Governor Blanco and Mayor Nagin (both Democrats) were slow to act especially in asking for help as is required, FEMA and Bush ended up taking most of the blame. Democrats get a free pass.

obama got more involved in the Trayvon Martin case and stupidly made the inept comment, "If I had a son, he would look like Trayvon Martin". And that meant what? Perhaps obama's handlers decided that his reading from a teleprompter on the Brown (Ferguson) case might actually do more harm than good.
 

Quote: 
excludes lots of classes of prisoners which are included in other countries' figures and still manages to dwarf the numbers for any comparable country. England and Wales are on 148.

Is it possible that other countries include our excludes in their general population? I don't see a mentioning on why the U.S. figures are broken out as they are, do you?

Curiously your population figures fail to mention some interesting facts:

U.S. population: 318M; England, Scotland, Wales 64M; Seychelles, 92k; Saint Kitts, Nevis, 51K

While the U.S crime rate per 100 thousand based on population is 707, yours is 148; ESW population is just under 5 times what ours is, so actually your crime rate is higher than ours adjusted for total population, resulting in 732 per 100K. Seychelles would look even worse with a population of 92k and a per 100k of 868. But I am just spitballing here.

Quote: 
The causes of this problem are of course manifold. A few obvious ones being disenfrranchisement of minorities (it's not just blacks that are overrepresented in prisons, also hispanics), gun laws, popularity of 'tough on crime' stances with electorates, the fact that minorities are less likely to vote.

Blacks and Hispanics are also overrepresented via population densities in cities, which tend to be Democratic. They are not less likely to vote, especially in cities and where perhaps the presence of militant, baton-wielding Black Panthers may be present to dissuade white votes. In suburban and rural areas you definitely have my attention. All this said, I do agree in large measure that whites do not suffer the persecution that blacks do in situations involving crime. Black crime is sensationalised by the media (tends to be Liberal, Left, leaning - i.e Democratic) here which is odd considering Dems claim to represent minorites, especially blacks. Recently the Dems have claimed to be for Latinos as well, but recent actions (or inactions as it were) seem to indicate their overall motivation is to get votes rather than actual reforms to help Hispanics.
 

Quote: 
But I think the real clincher is the fact that many of your prisons are run as businesses and those businesses are owned, ultimately, by politicians, lawmakers and those with lobbying influence.

That's almost as bad as saying that there are nothing but innocent Black and Hispanic people in our prisons although we both know that isn't true. If prisons were big business there would be an incentive to increase their population through the incarceration of all people - if not certainly more minorities - but in Big Business, what would it matter? There are plenty of dirtbag white boys throughout the country who easily belong in the clink. Interestingly, prison workers are generally represented by unions, so if anyone questions the amount of imprisonment or the number of prisons, the Dems are going to fight on that one because Democrats are pro-Union and Unions are pro-Democrat. Just so you know, businesses to my way of thinking are started for profit. Prisons do not operate profitably.
 

Quote: 
It's a humanitarian crime that dwarfs anything China, Russia or NK are up to and yet it goes largely uncommented upon.

The humanitarian crimes are perpetrated when a guy like Rodney King gets beaten. That was sensationalised too, but King was likely drunk driving and was attempting to elude the police at high speed. He also apparently charged a police officer, a fact which is sometimes disputed but may be supported by video. The real crime was that the police officers, though several were fired, were acquitted on charges of assault with a deadly weapon and use of excessive force. Scores of police departments across the country have been investigated or otherwise have come under scrutiny for racial profiling. It does happen and is just as wrong as letting the white guy go for a similar crime.

How do gun laws figure into the whole thing? Are you for more gun laws or less? If you support fewer guns, then I'd suggest taking another look at your crime rate vs ours whilst adjusting your population to the size of ours. All things being equal, I project your crime rate would still go up with more people.

 
  Did you ever see such a messed up situation in your whole life, son?
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 From:  Lucy (X3N0PH0N)  
 To:  fixrman      
41193.31 In reply to 41193.30 
Quote: 
What's even more weird is the lack of crticism for the obama administration
I've seen tonnes of criticism of the Obama administration. I've seen nothing but criticism. I don't know what you've been reading.
 
Quote: 
Is it possible that other countries include our excludes in their general population?
No, if there are exclusions then they are noted, as they are for the U.S.:
 
Quote: 
United States. Rate is for inmates held in adult facilities. For juvenile detention numbers see Youth incarceration in the United States. See notes at the bottom of the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) source table used by the World Prison Brief to calculate the rate in the above list: "Total includes all inmates held in local jails, state or federal prisons, or privately operated facilities. Excludes inmates held in U.S. Territories (appendix tables 2 and 3), military facilities (appendix tables 2 and 4), U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement [ICE] facilities, facilities contracted by the U.S. Marshals Service, jails in Indian country, or juvenile facilities."[4] BJS has numbers for U.S. Territories, military facilities, ICE, and for jails in Indian country.[5][6][7][8]
Only the U.S. and North Korea have such exclusions.
 
Quote: 
I don't see a mentioning on why the U.S. figures are broken out as they are, do you?
For the same reason North Korea's are, in an attempt to hide the problem.
 
Quote: 
Curiously your population figures fail to mention some interesting facts:

U.S. population: 318M; England, Scotland, Wales 64M; Seychelles, 92k; Saint Kitts, Nevis, 51K

While the U.S crime rate per 100 thousand based on population is 707, yours is 148; ESW population is just under 5 times what ours is, so actually your crime rate is higher than ours adjusted for total population, resulting in 732 per 100K. Seychelles would look even worse with a population of 92k and a per 100k of 868. But I am just spitballing here.
You seem to have grossly misunderstood the figures. They're not crime rates, they're incarceration rates.

Crime rates per country are very difficult to compare (because different nations obviously define different things as a crime) but in most figures the U.S. comes out kinda ok, you certainly have a high crime rate but not that much higher than comparable countries. Some figures here. Which is part of the point - your incarceration rate is 478% that of the UK while your crime rate is only 121% that of the UK (for example).

But no, the figures I linked are already per population. They represent the number of incarcerated people (minus all those exemptions) per 100,000 population. You are adjusting a figure for population when it's already adjusted for population. Your total prison population is of course higher and would be expected to be, you have far more people.

To be clear, and using these figures:

The USA has a population of 308 million, of whom 2,292,133 are in prison.

The UK has a population of 62.5 million, of whom 94,511 are in prison.

So your population is 5x larger but the number of people you incarcerate is 24x larger.

For context, the oppressive regime of China has a population of 1.6 billion and still incarcerates fewer people than the U.S.: about 1.4 million (though their figures are as dodgy as yours).

 
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