War & Politicsvoting, local / general

 

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 From:  JonCooper  
 To:  ALL
40433.1 
trying to stay away from specifics (for obvious reasons ;) )

I was wondering if people vote for the same parties in local and general elections

for local, would you vote for hard working good candidates, or for the guy who represents your national party

and other way round, when voting nationally, do you vote for the party or the leader?

also, will you be voting for one of the big three (Tory, Lib-Dem or Labour) or maybe someone else

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

not asking for details, just general thinking

Jon
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 From:  ANT_THOMAS  
 To:  JonCooper     
40433.2 In reply to 40433.1 
I don't vote enough in minor elections. I've voted a couple of times locally and tend to stick with the party I generally support which has usually been Labour.

I've never done enough research into specific candidates so can't really vote on how hard working they are but I guess I've generally assumed their local policy will match the side of the politics the party they represent are based around anyway.

I voted Lib Dem in the 2010 General but won't be doing that again. I was very annoyed when my former Labour MP got sent down for expenses crimes because apart from that I thought he was actually a decent MP with a parliamentary voting record which when I last checked I was fairly happy with. Him being sent down no doubt resulted in us getting a Conservative MP and I felt we lost a decent MP (in terms of politics).

I imagine I'll vote Labour at the next General Election.
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 From:  johngti_mk-ii  
 To:  JonCooper     
40433.3 In reply to 40433.1 
I generally stick with the same party mostly because I will never vote Tory and when the Gang of Four set up the SDP I remember my grandad telling me you can never trust them as they've deserted their principles. He was probably the biggest influence on me in so many ways - he hated the Conservative party because of his experiences as a miner in South Wales and the general strike of 1920-something. I guess it just got through to me somehow.

Add THE VETOES to your myspace friends!!! Pretty please :D

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 From:  koswix  
 To:  JonCooper     
40433.4 In reply to 40433.1 
I'm not currently registered to vote.

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If Feds call you and say something bad on me, it may prove what I said are truth, they are afraid of it.

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 From:  Jo (JELLS)  
 To:  JonCooper     
40433.5 In reply to 40433.1 
I find it really odd that you have political parties at the local level - for basically electing municipal councillors, right? In Canada, we only have parties at the federal and provincial level, but not for municipal elections. Exception being the cities of Montreal and I believe Vancouver, where they do have parties, but they're parties that exist only at that level - no ties at all to any provincial or federal party. And while we tend to have the same "main" parties federally and locally (e.g. Conservatives, Liberals, NDP, Greens, etc.) they're totally independent of each other. Meaning, for example, the Ontario Liberal Party had nothing to do with the federal Liberal party (they often totally disagree on policy and don't share a manifesto, etc.). So it's not uncommon to vote for one party federally and a completely different party provincially. And of course there are parties that exist at the provincial level that don't exist federally (like the Parti Québécois in Quebec, the Saskatchewan Party in (you guessed it) Saskatchewan. And two of the territories don't have any political parties - they have consensus government, which is much cooler.
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 From:  JonCooper  
 To:  Jo (JELLS)     
40433.6 In reply to 40433.5 
I like the sound of that last one, it has always bugged me that we might lose a great MP because of ideology rather than ability

Jon
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 From:  ANT_THOMAS  
 To:  JonCooper     
40433.7 In reply to 40433.6 
That's why I think we should have some sort of presidential system (but not get rid of the Queen, I'm sure plenty will disagree with me on that one). Our general elections are so often a popularity contest about who you do or don't want as prime minister rather than who you want to represent your constituency.

I think it could be better if we directly voted for the leader of our country so it left us to vote for someone who represented us locally without worrying about which party leader was going to become prime minister because of our local vote.

How parliament would work I don't really know, that's something I'd need to think about.
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 From:  JonCooper  
 To:  ANT_THOMAS     
40433.8 In reply to 40433.7 
see, that's something I could agree with - I actually apologised to out local Labour MP (who was not bad) saying I couldn't vote for her as it would keep Blair (and later Brown) in office

Jon
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 From:  Lucy (X3N0PH0N)  
 To:  ANT_THOMAS     
40433.9 In reply to 40433.7 
I much prefer the present system where elections are not tied to leadership (explicitly at least). If we vote for a PM separately, such that s/he may not belong to the majority party and/or have the support of that party if s/he does, then we're kinda asking for a weak leader as well as an American-style dumb popularity contest.

I like that the PM has relatively little importance (in that we can go through a change of PM without another election) but quite a lot of power in terms of domestic politics (when compared to the US president for example).

I would like to see some sort of PR though. But a model that retains both the local representation and lack of a presidential election of the current system.

Answering the original question: I vote for the party with the closest-match ideology to my own, taking into account, a bit, what chance they have of actually getting in. Pisses me off that all parties don't run everywhere. The parties I'd vote for under a PR system don't even run here. I don't pay any attention to how hard working the candidate is or whatever, that is of relatively little importance. Doesn't matter how hard working and well-intentioned my local MP is if the country is being fucked on a national level.

I voted Lib Dem last election. I will never, ever, ever, ever vote for them again. They turned my vote into a Tory vote. I'm still fucking angry about that. Bunch of weak, inexcusable cunts.

Probably vote Labour next time.
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 From:  ANT_THOMAS  
 To:  Lucy (X3N0PH0N)     
40433.10 In reply to 40433.9 
They're not officially tied to leadership but when it comes down to it I would say a large amount of people (possibly a majority) vote based on who they do or don't want as the Prime Minister rather than who to represent them in parliament.

Though as you say, a separately elected leader could easily result in the winner not being from the same party as the major party in the commons.

A local/regional/county form of PR would definitely be the best option. A national list would totally ruin any idea of local representation. Possibly split into lists of 20 or 30 MPs per region. This would definitely result in UKIP MPs and quite possibly BNP MPs which I wouldn't like, but that would be democracy in action. If people want these parties elected they should be.

I think your issue with parties you'd like to support not standing would definitely change if a form of PR came in. If for example a 30 MP list system came in per region they wouldn't need to put 30 candidates forward, just a couple to make sure that if they did get enough votes to win a seat or two they'd secure them fine. It could easily mean a small party puts forward a candidate per region and wins a couple of seats rather than 650 candidates and winning nothing.

Going off the 2010 election a national straight PR system would have given these results in MPs (2010 actual result):

Conservative -234 (306)
Labour - 188 (258)
Lib Dem - 150 (57)
UKIP - 20 (0)
BNP - 12 (0)
Green - 6 (1)
SNP - 11 (6)

I always knew the Lib Dems got screwed with FPTP but I didn't realise they did so well in 2010 in terms of popular vote.
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 From:  ANT_THOMAS  
 To:  ANT_THOMAS     
40433.11 In reply to 40433.10 
I tried to edit that post but Beehive is giving an error.

Forgot to add, with PR we'd be pretty much guaranteed a hung parliament and coalitions.
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 From:  Lucy (X3N0PH0N)  
 To:  ANT_THOMAS     
40433.12 In reply to 40433.10 
By not tied to leadership I mean we don't have to hold an election for a change of leadership. If a leader is ineffective, then the party can ditch her/him and and carry on. The party is more important than the leader (as it should be).

Of course some people will based on personality, that's inevitable and fine. But a presidential system makes that the only criterion and, well, just has no up-side.

I wouldn't want regional PR (depending on what you mean). I don't vote for who I want to represent my locality (I don't think that has any meaning any more, tbh). I vote for who I want to run the country and I think that's how it should be. I think everyone should vote, with no constituencies, for the party that they think should run the country and then a best-fit statistical model should be created and managed (by an independent body) which divides the country up into islands of voting-tendancy and fits the available MPs to those islands. Which is not an insoluable problem these days.

I don't think a PR system would've resulted in those numbers in the last election - people would've voted very differently knowing it was PR. But yeah, you're just illustrating that FPTP favours the big parties as it does of course.

I don't mind coalitions. I only mind when they result in my vote becoming the diametrical opposite of what I voted for :C

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 From:  Lucy (X3N0PH0N)  
 To:  Lucy (X3N0PH0N)     
40433.13 In reply to 40433.12 
*of course some people will vote

(can't edit either)
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 From:  ANT_THOMAS  
 To:  Lucy (X3N0PH0N)     
40433.14 In reply to 40433.12 
I just calculated votes per party/(total votes/MPs) so it was just a crude calculation.

It could mean people voting more so for smaller parties because they know their vote is worth more.

As for a local PR system I mean split the country up into maybe 20 or 30 MP sized regions and each region votes based on a list put forward by parties for that region. I'd rather that than a national PR system where MPs are then allocated regions after election. Saying that, it's not like there's as many MPs as there used to be who are actually from their constituency so many people aren't really locally represented anyway these days.
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 From:  Jo (JELLS)  
 To:  ANT_THOMAS     
40433.15 In reply to 40433.14 
I hate the very concept of party lists. I don't like political parties much to start with, and having a bunch of un-elected MPs in the House who are inevitably party hacks who probably couldn't get elected otherwise, accountable to the party only grates so much. Which is why I prefer STV - at least then everyone is elected outright. 
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 From:  JonCooper  
 To:  Lucy (X3N0PH0N)     
40433.16 In reply to 40433.9 
I read that post with my mouth open in genuine shock, I had no idea anyone could/would think like that

I tend towards the party that represents my position as best as possible, but the leader makes a HUGE difference - for me and everyone I've ever talked with about things like this

Take Blair, I would NOT have voted for any party led by him, it wouldn't have mattered if it was Lab, Tory, Lib-Dem, Green, or the "give Jon £1M a year" party. I knew the guy was a liar and a con-man from day one.

Jon
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 From:  CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)  
 To:  ALL
40433.17 
There's only one party that counts: M-O-N-E-Y. The rest is window dressing.

----
"Some ideas make you dumber the moment you learn of them."
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 From:  Lucy (X3N0PH0N)  
 To:  JonCooper     
40433.18 In reply to 40433.16 
quote:
I tend towards the party that represents my position as best as possible

Is that not immensely selfish?

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 From:  Lucy (X3N0PH0N)  
 To:  JonCooper     
40433.19 In reply to 40433.16 
Wait, no, I misunderstood. You meant it in the sense of 'aligns with my views' rather than (necessarily) 'makes things better for me'.

I don't think I voted for Blair, I think I've pretty much always voted Lib Dem. But if the choice were between warmongering Blair and backstabbing Clegg, I'd probably choose Blair. Not sure what that says about me -_-

I probably would've voted for Blair before the war stuff though. I don't believe he did much bad (compared to other PMs) besides the war (though that was of course a big deal) and think, that aside, he/the Labour govt. did a lot of good.

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 From:  THERE IS NO GOD BUT (RENDLE)  
 To:  Lucy (X3N0PH0N)     
40433.20 In reply to 40433.19 
Everybody should vote for the party that they think will make things better for them. That way, the party that makes things better for the largest number of people will win.

Of course, I don't believe in altruism (either as a principle or a thing that actually exists).

Happy now?

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