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 From:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)  
 To:  Dan (HERMAND)     
39835.9 In reply to 39835.6 
quote:
there is no legal framework for Sweden to guarantee he won't be extradited to the US

Fuck frameworks. It needs whoever is in charge of these things (either the foreign minister or a judge or whatever) to say "you're guaranteed safe passage. If you're subsequently charged and found guilty, you'll be imprisoned in Sweden, otherwise you'll be allowed safely back to wherever".


quote:
it would be illegal for the Sweden to extradite him to face any kind of conditions that would be illegal in the EU - i.e., the death penalty or torture.

I'm pretty sure the US denies that they are torturing Bradley Manning?

The US would presumably say they only want him for questioning, so it wouldn't be illegal - are Sweden responsible for what happens once the US have his hands on them, if they "believed" he was safe to go there?


quote:
that's just not how it works

That's just the lamest cop-out ever.


quote:
But no extradition request has been made by the US.

Of course not. Again, they're not going to show their hand before it's guaranteed.
If the US and Sweden aren't going to play pass the parcel then they just need to say it.
If they have no intention of doing it, why would they not say it?


quote:
In the grand scheme of things, it's only a recent development that he's put himself out of the system, as it were.

I'm not sure this counts as being out of the system (as opposed to just using another system), but either way it's only happened now because all in-system ways of fighting the move have been blocked.
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 From:  Dan (HERMAND)  
 To:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)     
39835.10 In reply to 39835.9 

Fuck frameworks. It needs whoever is in charge of these things (either the foreign minister or a judge or whatever) to say "you're guaranteed safe passage. If you're subsequently charged and found guilty, you'll be imprisoned in Sweden, otherwise you'll be allowed safely back to wherever".


So you think it would be acceptable for Swedens elected to act outside of the law and / or make promises that they simply can't keep? Who is going to uphold this agreement, because it certainly wouldn't the judiciary or the EU. It's all fun and games to say "But they should do a, b and c, but I really don't think they're going to start passing new laws, which may or may not be in breach of international law.


I'm pretty sure the US denies that they are torturing Bradley Manning?


Manning is a US citizen so it's kind of a moot point, but I do agree that his treatment has been a disgrace. FWIW, I think the US justice system borders on being 3rd world. But that's not a discussion for now.


The US would presumably say they only want him for questioning, so it wouldn't be illegal - are Sweden responsible for what happens once the US have his hands on them, if they "believed" he was safe to go there?


That's hypothetical and I don't know, but I imagine it wouldn't come down to phrases like 'reason to believe' etc.


That's just the lamest cop-out ever.


No, no it's not. Why should the UK, Sweden and the EU make huge adjustments to years of precedented law for one man who is desperate to act outside of it?


Of course not. Again, they're not going to show their hand before it's guaranteed.
If the US and Sweden aren't going to play pass the parcel then they just need to say it.
If they have no intention of doing it, why would they not say it?


Because they simply can't promise it and secondly, why should they? At the end of the day, while Assange is 'safe' for the time being, he's stuck in a fucking embassy. There's really no advantage for Sweden to go to the effort - it's just a waiting time now. Governments don't like being held to ransom at the best of times.


I'm not sure this counts as being out of the system (as opposed to just using another system), but either way it's only happened now because all in-system ways of fighting the move have been blocked.


You're right, maybe out of reach would have been a better phrase.
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 From:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)  
 To:  johngti_mk-ii      
39835.11 In reply to 39835.8 
To be precise, he didn't force anyone to have sex - the issue was whether consensual sex was had with or without a condom.

I'm not saying that's ok, just pointing out it's different to what saying someone is a rapist generally brings to mind.

I don't know/care whether he's guilty, and I don't care that he's a knob (though I agree that he is).

(However, if he is guilty, why - when the case was initially brought - were the charges dropped? What new evidence caused it to be re-opened?)

For me, the issue is one of governments being bullies/playing with people.

If he's not at risk of being extradited to the US, there's no reason for them not to say so.

Also, the only reason we're hearing about this is because he's making a fuss. If it was a normal person it wouldn't be in the news.
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 From:  Dan (HERMAND)  
 To:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)     
39835.12 In reply to 39835.11 
To be precise, he didn't force anyone to have sex - the issue was whether consensual sex was had with or without a condom.

I'm not saying that's ok, just pointing out it's different to what saying someone is a rapist generally brings to mind.



Careful here Pete, I know what you're saying but it's generally best to avoid categorising rape! The gritty details are irrelevant and there's nothing to say we have them all, anyway.

quote:

(However, if he is guilty, why - when the case was initially brought - were the charges dropped? What new evidence caused it to be re-opened?)

For me, the issue is one of governments being bullies/playing with people.


As I said, the prosecutor went to court and argued for them to reopened. I'm not sure what, if any, new evidence there was but legal due process was followed.

quote:

If he's not at risk of being extradited to the US, there's no reason for them not to say so.

Also, the only reason we're hearing about this is because he's making a fuss. If it was a normal person it wouldn't be in the news.


There IS a reason for them not to say so, and the reason is that they simply can't make that kind of guarantee. If the US DO request extradition through legal channels, Sweden can not simply turn around and go "Nah, dude - we said he was cool with us. Soz".

Or rather, they probably could, but it takes us down one hell of a road. The worlds far from perfect, but at least we've reached a stage where the major players work together and abide by some common laws and goals. When one country starts ignoring that, it fucks the whole thing up. Ecuador probably doesn't have an extradition treaty with the US, so it's fine for them to play by whatever rules they decide. But Sweden definitely does, and Sweden also need to play by EU rules.
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 From:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)  
 To:  Dan (HERMAND)     
39835.13 In reply to 39835.10 
Who says they can't keep the promise? :/

Why is it "acting outside the law" to say the equivalent of "whilst in Sweden for the purposes of this alleged action, you will not be subject to any other extradition requests"?

Why isn't there already a law to that effect? i.e. Give someone a fair trial and let it be concluded before some government comes and takes them away.

The whole premise of extraditing someone for something that isn't illegal in the country where you performed the act is fucked up.
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 From:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)  
 To:  Dan (HERMAND)     
39835.14 In reply to 39835.12 
quote:
Careful here Pete, I know what you're saying but it's generally best to avoid categorising rape! The gritty details are irrelevant and there's nothing to say we have them all, anyway.

Yeah, it's just my pedantry being irritated.

I've seen "alleged sexual offences" in several reports, which is probably the safest/balanced way to reference things?

quote:
but at least we've reached a stage where the major players work together and abide by some common laws and goals.

So you're saying it's a good thing that the powerful government around the world work together to exploit the citizens they are supposed to serve?

quote:
When one country starts ignoring that, it fucks the whole thing up.

You mean like by invading a country to look for mythical weapons?

Let's hope that never happens, or who knows what reaction it might cause... :/
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 From:  Dan (HERMAND)  
 To:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)     
39835.15 In reply to 39835.13 

How can they possibly keep the promise when there is now law for them to do so? Bitch about there not being one by all means, but there's no pre-emptive way to say "That person can't be extradited" - do you not see the huge potential for abuse?

 

It's one thing to have the legal arguments once the extradition request is made, but I really don't' see how it could possibly work before hand?

 

It's acting outside of the law because there are no laws to govern this. I don't that it's illegal, just untested and not legislated for.

 

I kind of agree with your last sentence, but it's very much a grey area - especially with more modern crimes. I'm not completely against Assange and I do think the US extradition treaties have some major issues, namely that their hugely biased and one sided - but it's still kind of a side point as one hasn't been made.

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 From:  Dan (HERMAND)  
 To:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)     
39835.16 In reply to 39835.14 

Yeah, it's just my pedantry being irritated.

I've seen "alleged sexual offences" in several reports, which is probably the safest/balanced way to reference things?


I believe in Sweden the offence is, and the charges are for rape. In part, at least - so it's entirely fair to say he's wanted for rape.

I'm ignoring the rest because I think you're getting a bit silly to be honest.
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 From:  koswix  
 To:  Dan (HERMAND)     
39835.17 In reply to 39835.12 
quote:
The gritty details are irrelevant



Don't be so fucking naive. There's a world of difference between a violent, forced sex attack and what Mr Assange is accused of. 'Categorising' is a pointless exercise, but by the same token it's completely inappropriate and offensive to victims of forced sex to equate what they have experienced to what Assange is accused of.

For the record, I do think Assange is a dick* and should answer to the charges against him in Sweden.


There's an interesting article on the Guardian from December 2010 which goes into a bit more detail of the charges than what most current news reports do. To my mind** it seems like a case of 3 people making a bunch of stupid decisions that they later regret.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/17/julian-assange-sweden


*regardless of the charges

**and of course my view is totally irellevant - I am neither an involved party nor someone with the required legal and social experience of Swedish culture and justice system to pass any form of moral judgement.



                                                
                                                
                                                
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 From:  Dan (HERMAND)  
 To:  koswix     
39835.18 In reply to 39835.17 
quote: The gritty details are irrelevant

Don't be so fucking naive. There's a world of difference between a violent, forced sex attack and what Mr Assange is accused of. 'Categorising' is a pointless exercise, but by the same token it's completely inappropriate and offensive to victims of forced sex to equate what they have experienced to what Assange is accused of.


I think you're completely wrong, so let's leave it there.
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 From:  koswix  
 To:  Dan (HERMAND)     
39835.19 In reply to 39835.18 

Alternatively, you could state why you think that and we could have some kind of meaningful debate on a very sensitive and important topic, hopefully widening understandings and making the world (at least the very small corners that Teh touches) a slightly better place to exist.

 

Or we could shut down debate because OMG RAPE.

 

 




                                                
                                                
                                                
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 From:  JonCooper  
 To:  ALL
39835.20 
the case against Assange in Sweeden was blatantly re-opened in order to get him somewhere that would pass him on to the US, no question

the case was dropped once, but re-started once the big-boys wanted to talk to him

it really doesn't take a huge leap to join the dots

Jon
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 From:  koswix  
 To:  johngti_mk-ii      
39835.21 In reply to 39835.8 

>>It appears to me that his excuse for not doing what anyone else would be expected to do is that wiki leaks is too important in terms of free speech and open-ness and that he should somehow be treated differently. That's complete rubbish, he's an individual and nobody's that important.

 

It would seem that there is a genuine risk of him ending up in the States if he returned to Sweden, which would be reason enough for any sane person to want to stay away.

 

As others have stated, he has offered to be interviewed in London and the Ecuadorian embassy, and although that's not 'normal' procedure it's certainly doable - I'm pretty sure I read about the Swedes interviewing a suspected murderer in a foreign country, but can't see the link just now.

 


I think he should be treated differently because of the Wikileaks connection and the very real possibility of political persecution because of that.

 

There are plenty of cases where things have been done out with the normal procedure for a court because of the potential political consequences for the individuals involved - for instance we went as far as setting up a Scottish law court in the Netherlands to try Abdelbaset al-Megrahi for the bombing of Pan Am 103.




                                                
                                                
                                                
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 From:  Ken (SHIELDSIT)  
 To:  ALL
39835.22 
I didn't read every post., but I guarantee that if they extradited him to the US he would disappear very quickly. I don't know where they hide these people but our government is good at it.

Disappear in a bad way...


By reading my posts you agree to my terms of service.
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 From:  Chris (CHRISSS)  
 To:  Ken (SHIELDSIT)     
39835.23 In reply to 39835.22 
Like the invisible man? It could have perks though.

Me
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 From:  Ken (SHIELDSIT)  
 To:  Chris (CHRISSS)     
39835.24 In reply to 39835.23 
Just ask 53. He can probably tell you all about it!


By reading my posts you agree to my terms of service.
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Message 39835.25 deleted 22 May 2015 13:48 by 53NORTH

 From:  koswix  
 To:  Al JunioR (53NORTH)     
39835.26 In reply to 39835.25 
Do you know about Denver Airport?



                                                
                                                
                                                
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 From:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)  
 To:  Al JunioR (53NORTH)     
39835.27 In reply to 39835.25 
You are very funny.

bastard by name, bastard by nature

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Message 39835.28 deleted 22 May 2015 13:48 by 53NORTH

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