War & PoliticsTo AV or not to AV

  

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 From:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)   4 May 2011 13:48 
 To:  koswix      21 of 115 
38444.21 In reply to 38444.20 
I meant on the AV bit.

Although it's a similar position - Conservatives have more than Labour and LibDems combined for both the last elections, and there's only two others - UKIP ( :& ) and Green.

Unless enough Tories were upset by the forest sell-off to all vote green, there's no hope of anything changing here.

But if it might make things better elsewhere I'd still pop over and vote. Currently sems like that'd be wasted effort though. :(
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 From:  milko   4 May 2011 15:00 
 To:  ALL 22 of 115 
38444.22 
I think I'm going to vote yes on account of it being 'least bad' and the No campaign was/is pretty goddamn abhorrent. I'm not especially happy about it but I'm not convinced by this not-voting tactic either.

milko
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 From:  patch   4 May 2011 15:10 
 To:  ALL 23 of 115 
38444.23 
Are we supposed to get ballot papers or something for this? I only ask because I haven't. I didn't get Census forms until I asked for them, either.
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 From:  af (CAER)   4 May 2011 15:25 
 To:  koswix      24 of 115 
38444.24 In reply to 38444.20 
It makes me wonder whether it'd be best if people had to vote on policies without being allowed to know which party was proposing that policy. Maybe then people would vote for the best policy, rather than for the party they've always voted for out of some sense of 'tradition'.
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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)   4 May 2011 15:33 
 To:  af (CAER)      25 of 115 
38444.25 In reply to 38444.24 
It's a nice idea except that policies often make a coherent whole. Your way, we'd end up with low taxes, high public spending and the country would be bankrupt in about a month.
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 From:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)   4 May 2011 15:33 
 To:  patch      26 of 115 
38444.26 In reply to 38444.23 
You should have received a Poll card, but you don't need it to vote - just turn up at the polling station with suitable ID.

Of course, it's the poll card that tells you where your polling station is, so if you don't know where it is you'll need to ask someone.
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 From:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)   4 May 2011 15:36 
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)      27 of 115 
38444.27 In reply to 38444.25 
Isn't the country already bankrupt? :S

Anyway, there shouldn't be a "tax policy", that would be a by-product of how many things people vote to spend money on - so high public spending results in higher taxes.

Still not sure it would work, but it'd be interesting if it could be experimented with somehow.
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 From:  af (CAER)   4 May 2011 15:36 
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)      28 of 115 
38444.28 In reply to 38444.25 

True, plus most people don't have a clue and would just vote for what seems to offer the most short-term gain.

 

In my ideal world there would be a benevolent dictator who truly had the best interests of the nation/world at heart, and people would know and accept this :C

 

Then I wake up :(
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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)   4 May 2011 15:38 
 To:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)      29 of 115 
38444.29 In reply to 38444.27 
No.

And no (hug)
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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)   4 May 2011 15:59 
 To:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)      30 of 115 
38444.30 In reply to 38444.27 
To expand on that a bit, people would still vote for lots of public services.

I mean, "would you like well-maintained roads or shitty ones?", "would you like a good health system or a shit one?", "would you like good schools or shit ones?".

And tax isn't just a pot to dip into to pay for what we spend. I mean, there are different taxes and they hit people differently. Sales taxes hit the poor hardest, road tax hits... those who own cars (or run them as part of a business), income tax hits everyone (above a certain threshold) but there are different bands - how do you decide where they go?

So, ok, you could offer package - pairings of tax policies with spending plans, that could work.

But then... would you really want the public to vote on foreign policy? We'd have to make intelligence information available to everyone voting (but no one else, obviously). Would you trust the public to make good decisions? And, probably more important, coherent ones?

Even if it worked, it would be more extremely mob rule-ish than the current system.
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 From:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)   4 May 2011 16:03 
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)      31 of 115 
38444.31 In reply to 38444.30 
quote:
Would you trust the public to make good decisions? And, probably more important, coherent ones?

No, but I don't trust power-hungry politicians either.

Idiocy and ineptitude both result in bad choices, but (in theory) you can educate idiots - I'm less sure you can fix politicians.
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 From:  af (CAER)   4 May 2011 16:44 
 To:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)      32 of 115 
38444.32 In reply to 38444.31 
I'm not so sure you can educate idiots - they're idiots by virtue of being unable or unwilling to learn, aren't they?
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 From:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)   4 May 2011 17:12 
 To:  af (CAER)      33 of 115 
38444.33 In reply to 38444.32 
They're idiots because (on the whole) the education system in this country is absolutely awful, and doesn't teach people how to learn.
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 From:  af (CAER)   4 May 2011 17:15 
 To:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)      34 of 115 
38444.34 In reply to 38444.33 
Well yeah - they're unwilling/unable because The System (which includes more than just the education system) has let them down.

Teaching kids how to learn isn't enough - they need to want to learn, and that's a problem that runs far deeper than the education system alone.
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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)   4 May 2011 17:26 
 To:  af (CAER)      35 of 115 
38444.35 In reply to 38444.34 
I dunno, I think I agree with Pete. Kids inherently want to learn. I mean they're fucking genetically programmed to want to learn. Though I agree with you that the problem is broader than just education (though that is a big problem), it's cultural.
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 From:  af (CAER)   4 May 2011 17:34 
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)      36 of 115 
38444.36 In reply to 38444.35 
Inherently yeah, they probably do want to learn, but in some places (basing this on my own experience in school, which I fully realise is purely anecdotal) peer pressure can override that - learning isn't "cool" (christ I feel like an old man writing it in quotes like that :( ), which where, as you say, the cultural issues arise.
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 From:  ANT_THOMAS   4 May 2011 17:44 
 To:  af (CAER)      37 of 115 
38444.37 In reply to 38444.36 

I kinda agree with you on the peer pressure point of view, but I think that peer pressure is down to the group of friends you have.

 

One of my best friends (I'm not 8, honest) since high school has just recently graduated as a commercial pilot, and previously went to uni and graduated with a Masters in Aerospace Engineering. During high school he made the decision to change his group of friends, for a number of reasons, I still to this day believe if he didn't do that he wouldn't have been as academically successful as he has been. When comparing the two sets of friends the academic achievements of them are polar opposites.

 

I'm not saying academic achievement is the most important thing in life but since it's the context of this discussion I think it's relevant.
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 From:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)   4 May 2011 17:48 
 To:  af (CAER)      38 of 115 
38444.38 In reply to 38444.36 
quote:
peer pressure can override that - learning isn't "cool"

Which is a flaw in the current education system.

Put the exact same people in the right environment and they'll not only find it cool, they'll be bubbling with enthusiasm and curiosity. (Of course, what that environment is depends on the people involved.)


I'd also not say the problem is broader than just education - the problem is that education is not broad enough. (In that, "education" shouldn't be a distinct thing that happens for a while, it should be a general foundation to society, (if I'm making any sense at all?))
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 From:  af (CAER)   4 May 2011 19:22 
 To:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)      39 of 115 
38444.39 In reply to 38444.38 
I agree that education isn't broad enough, and yeah, it should be much more integrated and fundamental to society.

And while I agree that theoretically "all" that needs to be done is to put kids into the right environment, in reality it's far from simple given the diversity of backgrounds, especially when the government try to standardise everything.
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 From:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)   4 May 2011 19:46 
 To:  af (CAER)      40 of 115 
38444.40 In reply to 38444.39 
I don't think I said all that needs doing is putting kids in the right environment (if I did, I didn't mean that) - it's also a question of having the correct "required" subjects at appropriate stages, a real selection of optional/selected subjects, the right framework for providing a taste of different subjects, and lots more.

But yeah, the only way it's got the slightest chance of happening is if a half-decent government comes along and has enough time, money, and support to do it with - which is pretty much impossible, so we're all doomed. Oh well. :(
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