War & PoliticsTo AV or not to AV

 

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 From:  Jo (JELLS)  
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)     
38444.101 In reply to 38444.73 
quote:
If they'd used their position in the coalition to force the tories left, then that would've been fine.


The Lib Dems aren't a left-wing party though, so that was never going to happen. They're more centrist than the Tories, sure, but definitely not a left-wing party. Their policies are clearly centre-right for the most part, and much less authoritarian than either the Conservatives or Labour.

And if you read any Conservative forums such as ConservativeHome on a regular basis as I do, you'd see that most "real" Tories do think the Lib Dems have moved the coalition too far to the left. Of course most of them don't consider Cameron to be a "real" Tory either, but that's a whole other issue. There was an analysis by University College London recently that found that 75% of the Lib Dem manifesto has been implemented by the coalition, and only 60% of the Conservative manifesto. I'd say that's pretty damn good for a junior partner. I think the real problem is people's perception of the Lib Dems - thinking they are lefties, when they're not.
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 From:  Jo (JELLS)  
 To:  ALL
38444.102 

Can someone explain why local council election results are considered some sort of indictment of the national party leaders? Are Miliband, Clegg, Cameron also leaders of the local council variations of their respective parties?

 

I know next to nothing about local councils and how they work - but aren't they basically just the equivalent of municipal elections here in Canada? We don't use parties at the municipal level in Canada, so the closest comparison i'd have here would be provincial elections, and no one would ever consider the success or failure of, say the New Brunswick NDP party as a reflection of the federal NDP party. They're separate entities that campaign on different platforms - one geared to federal issues, the other addressing provincial issues.

 

I just find it really bizarre that losing council seats would somehow be seen as a measure of success or failure of the national leaders. I mean, do council candidates campaign on the national party's manifesto or something? It's just rather confusing.

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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)  
 To:  Jo (JELLS)     
38444.103 In reply to 38444.101 
Well there's a degree to which left/right aren't meaingful any more, of course, since all 3 major parties are free market capitalist parties.

I believe the lib dems are more left wing at heart than their current leadership implies. All the prominent lib dems are yellow-book libs but I think the base is more orange-book.

Anyway, even the yellow-book libs are, I would say, significantly to the left of both the tories and labour, being generally in favour of more and more progressive taxation, lower defence spending, free tertiary education and so on. While of course they're not socialists, social liberals are the closest we currently have to a left-wing.

Depends very much what you choose to mean by left/right though, yeah. The sorts of things I hoped they'd stop the tories doing include: Privatising the NHS (or taking the first steps toward that, at least), increasing tuition fees, cutting arts spending and so on.

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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)  
 To:  Jo (JELLS)     
38444.104 In reply to 38444.102 
They're not separate parties, there are no local variations of each party, just the parties themselves.

So if you vote Labour in general elections you'll generally vote Labour in council elections too (not always, some people will believe x is better at running the country while y is better at running the city or whatever, but it's usually how it goes). So local elections are usually a pretty good indication of how people would vote in a general election.

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 From:  ANT_THOMAS  
 To:  Jo (JELLS)     
38444.105 In reply to 38444.102 

What 'Drew said really.

 

People tend to still support one party irrelevant of whether it's local or national. And unless you're a hardcore constant supporter of that party then you'll vote based on your current opinion of the performance of the parties.

 

So currently any floating voters that voted LibDem or Con during the General Election will probably decide they're shit now and vote for another party.

 

I voted LibDem at the General last year for various reasons but I went back to voting Labour this time in the locals and will most likely vote Labour in anything over the next few years.

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 From:  Jo (JELLS)  
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)     
38444.106 In reply to 38444.104 
But aren't councils basically rather impotent bodies? Meaning that most of their funding, program decisions etc., come from Westminster? The best the councils can do is decide how to spend the money they get (or reorganize spending when funding is cut) or how to implement a program locally? Or do they have more power than that? If it's the former, why bother with parties at that level? Seems a bit pointless.

As far as i know*, in Canada, only the Montreal and Vancouver have political parties at the municipal level and they're not "real" parties - meaning, they're parties that exist only at the city level, not offshoots of any federal or provincial party.



*There could be others - i don't follow municipal politics at all, not even in the city i live in, so i have no clue what happens in other provinces. I used to live in Montreal which is why i know they have "parties".
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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)  
 To:  Jo (JELLS)     
38444.107 In reply to 38444.106 
Yep, that's how it is and... I guess they have parties so that, well, up until 50 years ago so that people knew the ideology of the person they were voting for and could trust them to make particular decisions based on that. Now there's no real ideology in politics you're right really, parties are pointless at a local level.

Although I guess the serve one of the same functions they serve nationally in that they're a voting block. I know that if I return a labour councillor s/he'll vote with the other labour councillors.

But yeah, no real reason.

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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)  
 To:  Jo (JELLS)     
38444.108 In reply to 38444.106 
Oh and it should probably be noted (I'm sure you're aware but just in case) that the elections in Wales and Scotland were for their Assembly and Parliament respectively and so are of a bit more immediate significance.

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 From:  Jo (JELLS)  
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)     
38444.109 In reply to 38444.108 
Yeah, that I knew. BBC World just died here (all the other cable channels work but that one just went on the fritz for some reason) but they were talking about the SNP promising a referendum on independence. Been there, done that, it was hell, wouldn't recommend that route to anyone. (Quebec 1995)
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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)  
 To:  Jo (JELLS)     
38444.110 In reply to 38444.109 
Hah, aye, I Remember that (not as intimately as you of course, from over here).

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 From:  ANT_THOMAS  
 To:  ALL
38444.111 
Well they had to draw straws in Bury and Labour took control.

http://www.burytimes.co.uk/news/9013120.Future_of_Bury_Council_decided___by_the_drawing_of_lots/

(giggle)
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 From:  koswix  
 To:  ALL
38444.112 

Holy crap this is one helluva yellow map :D

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/election2011/constituency/html/scotland.stm

 

The SNP have a majority at 65 seats, and there's still 3 regional votes to be declared.

 

So far I think the Lib Dems have got a massive 4 seats, and Labour 29. This is going to be an interesting parliament.



GIVE ME EYERON OR! :@ msg:38140.1
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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)  
 To:  koswix     
38444.113 In reply to 38444.112 
^____________^

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 From:  Oscarvarium (OZGUR)  
 To:  ANT_THOMAS     
38444.114 In reply to 38444.111 

That's hilarious. If only we had some kind of voting system that allowed people who voted for the other parties to still have some say.

 

Oh fucking wait.


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 From:  Kriv  
 To:  ALL
38444.115 

1. Lib Dems have taken a lot of unwarranted flack, they are the Tory Shield.

 

2. Motion would have passed if Brown didnt decline a coalition.

 

3. AV is insignificant, Proportinal Representation was what should have been fought for. Tories (and Labour) know PR would reduce their numbers in parliament. No longer would Tories and Labour rely on their minority vote (30-38%) to gain power via tactical voting

 

4. If AV is so bad, why are internal party votes follow AV?

 

5. Seeing a voting reform referendum in our lifetime is extremely unlikely, well done Clegg.

 

6. Cameron has pretty much secured a second term in office. Lib deems returned to 1980s political strength, Labour scapegoat for debt will take a while to shake off (Not all their fault, but definitely a significant contributing factor)

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