War & PoliticsElection Debates

 

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 From:  Dave!!  
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)      
37341.16 In reply to 37341.1 

Clegg did come across very well I thought. One of the biggest reasons was that he seemed to be able to back up his claims with a bit more substance than the other 2.

 

Brown came across surprisingly well, although this may just have been because I had such low expectations for him. Unfortunately, any chance Labour had of getting my vote disappeared when they forced the Mandybill through the wash-up period of parliament instead of properly debating it.

 

Cameron came across fairly poorly. He kept on blabbering on about "waste", but was only able to quote a couple of fairly tame examples of this. Sure canning the 7% pay rise for NHS managers is a good idea, but it's not going to magically result in billions of pounds of savings. Waste is only waste once you've identified it and explained exactly how you'd save the money. Until then, it's just an empty and substance-less word.

 

I was leaning in favour of Lib Dem before seeing this debate (I've explained my anti-Labour stance, and our Tory candidate lives over 50 miles away from my town for a start!). This debate has just enhanced that lean.

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 From:  Radio  
 To:  Dave!!     
37341.17 In reply to 37341.16 

You've just reminded me about the most annoying thing about Cameron from last night.
The only real concrete example of waste that he identified was the 7% payrise for NHS managers, but then he went on to say that the only public service he was protecting was the NHS, and that he'd actually be increasing the contributions in real-term over the life of the parliament.

My life is hard, I suffer lots
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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)   
 To:  Dave!!     
37341.18 In reply to 37341.16 
Aye, exactly the same for me really.

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 From:  Oscarvarium (OZGUR)  
 To:  Dave!!     
37341.19 In reply to 37341.16 
quote: Dave!!
empty and substance-less


Pretty much like the Tory party themselves? I hate the fact that David Cameron (or any politician) can get by on being 'charismatic' (at least in some people's eyes) and not by showing any actual integrity, intelligence or leadership qualities.

I liked the chancellor debate because if you look at the three of them and think "who puts the most effort into their apearance?" you also get the likely answer to "who puts the least amount of effort into actually working?" (Darling's anomalous eyebrows notwithstanding).

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 From:  Jo (JELLS)  
 To:  Radio     
37341.20 In reply to 37341.15 
quote:
Even with that though, unless its some monumental shift, the 'best' result for the Lib Dems will be a hung parliament. In that case, Brown stays on as Prime Minister


Even if the Tories end up with more seats than Labour?
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 From:  ANT_THOMAS  
 To:  Jo (JELLS)     
37341.21 In reply to 37341.20 
No, then Cameron will be PM. I think based on the seats that are more likely to swing to Lib Dem it'd still give a Labour victory, even if it is a hung parliament.

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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)   
 To:  ANT_THOMAS     
37341.22 In reply to 37341.21 
Nah, I'm pretty sure the leader of the majority coalition (whoever the members of that coalition decide that is) becomes PM. And everyone seems to be assuming the libs will ally with Labour if it's hung. So if that turns out to be true and Tories get most seats without getting an overall majority, then Brown is still PM.

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 From:  Jo (JELLS)  
 To:  ANT_THOMAS     
37341.23 In reply to 37341.21 
We've had minority parliaments in Canada since the 2004 election. I normally prefer minority gov't to majority gov't, but the last 2 elections were won by the Conservatives and they're absolute twats. Doesn't help that the opposition parties, in particular the main opposition party, the Liberals, have been in a state of rather perpetual disarray since they lost their majority gov't status in 2004. We've had 3 elections in 6 years - all with minority results. It's just been a total mess - excessively partisan, really mean, spiteful even poisonous atmosphere in the House. Our Cons are masters of teh nasty.
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 From:  ANT_THOMAS  
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)      
37341.24 In reply to 37341.22 
Ahh, yes. My bad.

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 From:  Jo (JELLS)  
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)      
37341.25 In reply to 37341.22 
Have the parties formally said they'd enter into a coalition arrangement?
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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)   
 To:  Jo (JELLS)     
37341.26 In reply to 37341.25 
Nope.

They probably will though. Lesser of two evils thing. Despite the Digital Economy Act and illegal wars and that, the Tories are still more evil than Labour. Marginally.

It's fucked in so many ways though - there's fuck all real ideological separation between the parties (there's fuck all ideology at all, really). So I dunno, if the Tories come close to a majority but don't quite get it (even with unionist support etc.) then the Libs, particularly if they take a higher share of the vote than expected, may feel a moral obligation to support the party with the most credible scraps of a mandate.

Ideally (in dream land) the Libs will win outright and push things to the left by... a couple of millimetres.

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 From:  Jo (JELLS)  
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)      
37341.27 In reply to 37341.26 

It's just that proper coalitions (where members of both parties are appointed to cabinet positions) are extremely rare in westminister parliamentary systems. It's more common to have a formal agreement or accord between 2 or more parties, but where only one party actually forms the government (i.e. Labour would govern, but the LDP agrees to support them for a certain period of time - say 2 years, and Labour agrees to implement certain policies favoured by the LDP). However, even in that instance, normally, if the Cons actually won more seats overall, they should still be asked to have the first crack at governing. Then, if defeated on a confidence motion, the other two can go to the Queen and say they're willing to try governing rather than have an election.

 

Sadly, a proper coalition will never happen in Canada. Our opposition parties tried that back in 2008 and the governing Cons went on a PR campaign painting the move as "treasonous" and illegal, and against the will of the Canadian public, etc. And since way too many people have no fucking clue how parliamentary systems actually work (i.e. we don't actually vote in governments, we vote in MPs who then decide who will form the government), the Cons managed to rally a majority of Canadians against the idea of a coalition. They still use the term as a threat when they start to sag in the polls.

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 From:  Radio  
 To:  Jo (JELLS)     
37341.28 In reply to 37341.20 
Even if the Tories end up with more seats than Labour, unless they get an absolute majority (i.e. >= 362 seats) then Gordon Brown is still PM:
What happens if there is a hung parliament?
The incumbent Prime Minister will remain in power until he or she resigns and may try to stay in government even if his or her party did not win the largest number of seats.
My life is hard, I suffer lots
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 From:  Jo (JELLS)  
 To:  Radio     
37341.29 In reply to 37341.28 
Weird. That's not how things work here. The only way the incumbent would stay in power is if the two main parties were tied in number of seats - the incumbent would get the first shot at trying to govern. But otherwise, whichever party wins the most seats, even if they're shy of a majority, gets to form the government.
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 From:  Radio  
 To:  Jo (JELLS)     
37341.30 In reply to 37341.29 
Ah, you're making the fatal assumption that our democracy even pretends to be properly democratic - or even to make sense.
My life is hard, I suffer lots
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 From:  Jo (JELLS)  
 To:  Radio     
37341.31 In reply to 37341.30 
It's a natural assumption since our system is pretty much a carbon copy of yours.
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 From:  DrBoff (BOFF)  
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)      
37341.32 In reply to 37341.26 
I'm still fairly apathetic about all the parties - Clegg is coming off pretty well but it's all still mostly political bull. However, the Libs seem most interested in Parliamentary reform, which gets my vote.
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 From:  DrBoff (BOFF)  
 To:  ALL
37341.33 In reply to 37341.31 
Incidentally, just seen this on t'Guardian.

Direct Digital Democracy
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 From:  Oscarvarium (OZGUR)  
 To:  ALL
37341.34 

So the hung parliament means that the incumbent PM gets to build a government made from the most suitable people from each party? Why does that not already happen?

 

Assuming for a moment that none of the major parties are perfect (just go with me on this one), is it not better to have the one person who is most competent in their position in charge of each department? As opposed to being forced to choose one party which could have some members that you feel are weaker and would prefer someone from another party, even if you didn't agree with that parties policies in general.

 

Smash the establishment, etc.


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 From:  Manthorp  
 To:  Oscarvarium (OZGUR)     
37341.35 In reply to 37341.34 
Suitability has nothing to do with it. Parties go into huddles in closed rooms, attempting to negotiate a working majority against promises of senior cabinet posts to people not fit to hold them, or extreme legislation as a honey trap for single interest groups. If you thought this government stank, wait till you see two minority parties vying against one another to seduce the Lib Dems and the Irish Unionists.

"We all have flaws, and mine is being wicked."
James Thurber, The Thirteen Clocks 1951

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