War & PoliticsLibyan Compensation

 

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 From:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)  
 To:  koswix      
36544.6 In reply to 36544.1 
I guess that the one difference being that Libya was unlikely to think that semtex* supplied to the IRA** could in any way be used in a legal, peaceful activity. Unless they truly believed that 'IRA' stood for 'Irish Restructuring Architects', a crack squad of civilian engineers who were redeveloping Dublin's brown belt. So the argument comes down to intent.

On the other hand, I'd be up for suing those fuck-witted yanks for supplying the IRA. But then they'd probably argue that they thought the money was going to buy potatoes or rosary beads.

* an explosive with no non-explosive uses that I'm aware of
** a terrorist organisation that used explosives to kill civilians

bastard by name, bastard by nature

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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)  
 To:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)     
36544.7 In reply to 36544.6 
You could pretty much extend that to all weapons sales though.

Such as ours to Iraq.

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 From:  koswix   
 To:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)     
36544.8 In reply to 36544.6 

I'm not suggesting there is any other reason for the IRA to be buying Semtex, but the fact remains that it was the IRA that blew shit up.

 

Not that I'm very comfortable with that argument, either tbh.

 

I guess I view it similarly to Iraqi (or East Timorese, or countless others) seeking compensation from BAE Systems, rather than the actual aggressor.

 

I'm not suggesting that Libya (or BAE, or whoever) 'get away' with their part in shit, just the concept of who can/should impose those settlements an that.



The Seventh Posture of Burton's translation of The Perfumed Garden is an unusual position not described in other classical sex manuals. The receiving partner lies on their side. The penetrating partner faces the receiver, straddling the receiver's lower leg, and lifts the receiver's upper leg on either side of the body onto the crook of penetrating partner's elbow or onto the shoulder. While some references describe this position as being "for acrobats and not to be taken seriously," others have found it very comfortable, especially during pregnancy.
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 From:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)  
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)     
36544.9 In reply to 36544.7 

Possibly so, I'm not arguing that you couldn't. Although (and perhaps this is tinged with hypocrisy) I do draw a distinction between terrorism and 'traditional' warfare. For sure, the outcome is often the same for civilians (innocent people get killed or their likelihoods and families destroyed) but there is, in my befuddled mind, a distinction between a soldier who openly takes part in combat ostensibly against a similarly 'honourable' foe and a terrorist whose only intent is to run away before the damage is done.

 

Then, of course, there are the terrorists who sacrifice themselves as part of their attack and the 'death by wire' tactics employed by otherwise traditional armies that blur the lines. But sure, let the UK be sued too. You bloody deserve it you peddlers of death!

bastard by name, bastard by nature

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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)  
 To:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)     
36544.10 In reply to 36544.9 
Aye, it's a funny one alreet.

I just find the idea of using the legal system (whether domestic or international) as recourse for acts of war (or warlike acts) fucking bizarre.

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 From:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)  
 To:  koswix      
36544.11 In reply to 36544.8 

If I sold/gave you a knife knowing that you intended to murder one Andrew Holgate or Staffordshire, and then you travelled to Staffordshire whereupon you dispatched one dinosaur disillusionist, would I be prosecuted as an accomplice/co-conspirator?

 

(Because if so, you're not having it)

bastard by name, bastard by nature

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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)  
 To:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)     
36544.12 In reply to 36544.11 
I could totally dodge a knife. Bring a flamethrower.

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 From:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)  
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)     
36544.13 In reply to 36544.10 
Agreed. I've always thought that they should abandon the international war crimes tribunals in The Hague. It's just an excuse for a bunch of useless lawyers to piss about on the world stage.

bastard by name, bastard by nature

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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)  
 To:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)     
36544.14 In reply to 36544.13 
Again, it's a funny one, I do think there should be some oversight with acts of war. But... if a country has any fucking sense it'll hide any illegal acts or get immunity or whatever anyway. Trying to regulate war is pretty fucking futile.

And holding people accountable to laws they were never either implicitly or explicitly bound by is... strange.

While it'll no doubt be unpopular I'd argue that terrorism is the 'legitimate' (in a certain sense) response to 'illegal' warlike acts.

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 From:  dave (10_ROGUE)  
 To:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)     
36544.15 In reply to 36544.6 

* an explosive with no non-explosive uses that I'm aware of


Have you seen the stuff? Screw play doh, those Libyans really know their modelling putty.
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 From:  koswix   
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)     
36544.16 In reply to 36544.14 

>>While it'll no doubt be unpopular I'd argue that terrorism is the 'legitimate' (in a certain sense) response to 'illegal' warlike acts.

 


I'd have to agree with that.

 

And also disagree with the notion that it's in anyway less 'honourable' to be a terrorist than a sodjer.

 

A terrorist organisation is, by definition, a group with far less power and resource than a national army, so of course they'll turn to guerilla tictacs (they're the Camo coloured ones) and 'soft targets' to maximise the impact of what they /do/ have.

 


By which I'm not saying I think terrorists are honourable, but rather that armies are not (unless in existence purely for defence and never ever used for first-strike/agression/securing oil reserves. More a peoples millitia than an army, really).



The Seventh Posture of Burton's translation of The Perfumed Garden is an unusual position not described in other classical sex manuals. The receiving partner lies on their side. The penetrating partner faces the receiver, straddling the receiver's lower leg, and lifts the receiver's upper leg on either side of the body onto the crook of penetrating partner's elbow or onto the shoulder. While some references describe this position as being "for acrobats and not to be taken seriously," others have found it very comfortable, especially during pregnancy.
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 From:  koswix   
 To:  dave (10_ROGUE)     
36544.17 In reply to 36544.15 
I made a full-size moddle of Challenger out of it once. I left it behind in Florida back in the '80s. Went back to look for it but never did find it. Wonder what happened to it?


The Seventh Posture of Burton's translation of The Perfumed Garden is an unusual position not described in other classical sex manuals. The receiving partner lies on their side. The penetrating partner faces the receiver, straddling the receiver's lower leg, and lifts the receiver's upper leg on either side of the body onto the crook of penetrating partner's elbow or onto the shoulder. While some references describe this position as being "for acrobats and not to be taken seriously," others have found it very comfortable, especially during pregnancy.
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 From:  dave (10_ROGUE)  
 To:  koswix      
36544.18 In reply to 36544.1 

The Libyan government where and arguably still are a bunch of bastards, but if the people who paid for and planted the bombs are allowed to walk free it doesn't leave any justification for this case beyond exploited or poorly targeted grief.
In my opinion they should be busy badgering the government for an explaination of why Libya are being brought in from the cold but still get to act like dicks.

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 From:  Radio  
 To:  koswix      
36544.19 In reply to 36544.16 
Guerilla tactics I'm with you, but there's nothing honourable about targetting civilians rather than military centres.
My life is hard, I suffer lots
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 From:  koswix   
 To:  Radio     
36544.20 In reply to 36544.19 

Bearing in mind that I don't find any form of warfare (except revolution :C ) honourable, I don't find targeting civilians necessarily less honourable than other tactics.

 


Asuming the civilians are from the nation/state that is presumably abusing it's power to subjugate or oppress another (the basis for most terrorism), then there is a legitamate argument that those civilians, as the electorate, are as responsible as the Government or army of that nation.



The Seventh Posture of Burton's translation of The Perfumed Garden is an unusual position not described in other classical sex manuals. The receiving partner lies on their side. The penetrating partner faces the receiver, straddling the receiver's lower leg, and lifts the receiver's upper leg on either side of the body onto the crook of penetrating partner's elbow or onto the shoulder. While some references describe this position as being "for acrobats and not to be taken seriously," others have found it very comfortable, especially during pregnancy.
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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)  
 To:  koswix      
36544.21 In reply to 36544.16 
I dunno... I don't disagree with anything you've said. And I'd say the same. But I also see where Truffy's coming from.

But I think he's comparing the ideal of an army or soldier with the worst example of terrorism. Rather than, for example, comparing the soldiers at My Lai with the French Resistance.

But yeah, there is, I think, a difference between fighting amongst those who have voluntarily put their life on the line for a particular cause and something more 'asymmetric'. Like the difference between a fight and a mugging.

But yeah, in the context of real events and global politics in the world as it is, I agree with you. The time when there could be Just Wars, if it ever existed, is over.

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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)  
 To:  Radio     
36544.22 In reply to 36544.19 
I agree with Kos' response. And I'd add the obvious point that armies target civilians (there's no difference, to me, between intentionally targeting civilians and failing to take necessary precautions against civilian casualties - if you can't be reasonably sure of hitting your target and no civilians then you're targeting civilians).

More to the point, if you want a conflict to end fast, you target civilians. It's always been the way and always will be. It's a necessary part of war and will be while we live in a world where war can exist.

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 From:  koswix   
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)     
36544.23 In reply to 36544.21 

>>But yeah, there is, I think, a difference between fighting amongst those who have voluntarily put their life on the line for a particular cause and something more 'asymmetric'. Like the difference between a fight and a mugging.

 

I'm not sure that the fight/mugging thing really scales to conflict on this sort of level tbh. But fair enough, I take the point.

 

But what of conscription, a practice still used in many countries (including Truffy's Switzerland, although that's a bit different again)?



The Seventh Posture of Burton's translation of The Perfumed Garden is an unusual position not described in other classical sex manuals. The receiving partner lies on their side. The penetrating partner faces the receiver, straddling the receiver's lower leg, and lifts the receiver's upper leg on either side of the body onto the crook of penetrating partner's elbow or onto the shoulder. While some references describe this position as being "for acrobats and not to be taken seriously," others have found it very comfortable, especially during pregnancy.
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 From:  Radio  
 To:  koswix      
36544.24 In reply to 36544.20 

Its not really something I've put a great deal of thought into, but it just seems fairer and more honourable (note, not necessarily reaching the status of 'honourable', just moreso) to attack someone who has the capacity to defend themselves rather than 'innocent' civilians.

 

If there really is an intent to attack or punish the populace, then they should at least be warned that war has been declared.

 

Then again, the terrorists would probably counter that by saying that the people imprisoned/killed/etc weren't given any warnings, so in actual fact they're being perfectly fair, so I dunno!

My life is hard, I suffer lots
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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)  
 To:  koswix      
36544.25 In reply to 36544.23 
Oh aye conscription changes things. As I say, it's an idealised thingy.

I agree with what you said really, I just think there is some... stuff in the middle where things get even muddier.

I suppose part of what it boils down to is that I reckon we both find violence carried out on behalf of states objectionable from the start.

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