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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)  
 To:  koswix      
36544.21 In reply to 36544.16 
I dunno... I don't disagree with anything you've said. And I'd say the same. But I also see where Truffy's coming from.

But I think he's comparing the ideal of an army or soldier with the worst example of terrorism. Rather than, for example, comparing the soldiers at My Lai with the French Resistance.

But yeah, there is, I think, a difference between fighting amongst those who have voluntarily put their life on the line for a particular cause and something more 'asymmetric'. Like the difference between a fight and a mugging.

But yeah, in the context of real events and global politics in the world as it is, I agree with you. The time when there could be Just Wars, if it ever existed, is over.

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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)  
 To:  Radio     
36544.22 In reply to 36544.19 
I agree with Kos' response. And I'd add the obvious point that armies target civilians (there's no difference, to me, between intentionally targeting civilians and failing to take necessary precautions against civilian casualties - if you can't be reasonably sure of hitting your target and no civilians then you're targeting civilians).

More to the point, if you want a conflict to end fast, you target civilians. It's always been the way and always will be. It's a necessary part of war and will be while we live in a world where war can exist.

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 From:  koswix   
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)     
36544.23 In reply to 36544.21 

>>But yeah, there is, I think, a difference between fighting amongst those who have voluntarily put their life on the line for a particular cause and something more 'asymmetric'. Like the difference between a fight and a mugging.

 

I'm not sure that the fight/mugging thing really scales to conflict on this sort of level tbh. But fair enough, I take the point.

 

But what of conscription, a practice still used in many countries (including Truffy's Switzerland, although that's a bit different again)?



The Seventh Posture of Burton's translation of The Perfumed Garden is an unusual position not described in other classical sex manuals. The receiving partner lies on their side. The penetrating partner faces the receiver, straddling the receiver's lower leg, and lifts the receiver's upper leg on either side of the body onto the crook of penetrating partner's elbow or onto the shoulder. While some references describe this position as being "for acrobats and not to be taken seriously," others have found it very comfortable, especially during pregnancy.
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 From:  Radio  
 To:  koswix      
36544.24 In reply to 36544.20 

Its not really something I've put a great deal of thought into, but it just seems fairer and more honourable (note, not necessarily reaching the status of 'honourable', just moreso) to attack someone who has the capacity to defend themselves rather than 'innocent' civilians.

 

If there really is an intent to attack or punish the populace, then they should at least be warned that war has been declared.

 

Then again, the terrorists would probably counter that by saying that the people imprisoned/killed/etc weren't given any warnings, so in actual fact they're being perfectly fair, so I dunno!

My life is hard, I suffer lots
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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)  
 To:  koswix      
36544.25 In reply to 36544.23 
Oh aye conscription changes things. As I say, it's an idealised thingy.

I agree with what you said really, I just think there is some... stuff in the middle where things get even muddier.

I suppose part of what it boils down to is that I reckon we both find violence carried out on behalf of states objectionable from the start.

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 From:  CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)  
 To:  Radio     
36544.26 In reply to 36544.19 

>nothing honourable about targetting civilians rather than military centres

 

Yet everyone does it. Bar none.


----
Linux is endlessy fascinating, windows is endlessly boring...
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 From:  JonCooper  
 To:  ALL
36544.27 
I think the label "terrorist" depends a lot on your perspective

quote: Humphery Appleby
I am a patriot
you are a freedom fighter
he is a terrorist

Jon
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 From:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)  
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)     
36544.28 In reply to 36544.21 
But I think he's comparing the ideal of an army or soldier with the worst example of terrorism. Rather than, for example, comparing the soldiers at My Lai with the French Resistance.

To a certain extent, yes. But I'd draw distinctions between the French resistance, IRA, and al-Qaeda as terrorists (I think you meant the resistance as terrorists, in that they often fought without open engagement.)

The French resistance were fighting an aggressor on their own soil. From that perspective they were 'freedom fighters' in the truest sense.

The IRA might be given the same kudos when they maintained the fight on their own soil, except it's arguable as to what level of support they had from the people living in the territory they were fighting for. (But then were those people (the descendents of) invaders?) But when they plant bombs in UK mainland litter bins, killing a 10 year old boy, that is terrorism.

And any invasion is terrorism depending on your POV, I guess. Personally, I thought the British army should've pulled out Ireland right at the start and let the paddies get on with it. But I guess that may not have been totally popular with some sections of society :Y

bastard by name, bastard by nature

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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)  
 To:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)     
36544.29 In reply to 36544.28 
Yeah, I do feel there's a difference in some way, if only culturally (between a soldier and a terrorist).

Not sure I buy the 'on their own soil' thing. I think that was (and still is) a logistic matter.

And... Up until and including WWII (and for a short time after) wars were mainly imperialistic/colonial/'political/ideological' whereas now the the greater component of the power struggle is economic (that was always there, but it's gone from secondary to primary). I'm not saying "it's all about oil", just that pretty much all international political endeavours since the 50s have really been about creating a stable international trading environment, with all other concerns (ideological, political, cultural and humanitarian) taking a back seat.

So, yeah, that's a roundabout way of saying that I think attacking overseas economic interests of the aggressor is now pretty much akin to what the French Resistance was doing.

I also agree with Kos' thing, I think part of the 'responsibility' of democracy is that civilians become complicit in state actions.

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 From:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)  
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)     
36544.30 In reply to 36544.29 
So, yeah, that's a roundabout way of saying that I think attacking overseas economic interests of the aggressor is now pretty much akin to what the French Resistance was doing.

Except the French Resistance fought on their own sovereign territory. The correct analogy with modern terrorists would've been if the FR had killed German civilians or 'economic interests' in Germany. But they didn't, did they? They attacked (largely) legitimate German military targets on their home soil.

Very different, Andrew, very different.

bastard by name, bastard by nature

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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)  
 To:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)     
36544.31 In reply to 36544.30 
Nah, my point was that unlike in WWII I don't think there is such a thing as a discrete military target. The military is now the arm of an economic system rather than a political or ideological one. And that that economic system is dispersed across a large portion of the globe.

The invasion wasn't (to begin with) physical, it was cultural and economic. There were no physical targets on home soil to attack, certainly not ones which could be described as purely military.

And attacking overseas economic targets has (in my opinion) the same logistic and strategic effect (in context) as did the resistance attacks on german military targets in WWII (I disagree that the resistance's targets were predominantly military, but that's beside the point).

I think taking their very different contexts into account the practises are comparable.

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 From:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)  
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)     
36544.32 In reply to 36544.31 
The military is now the arm of an economic system rather than a political or ideological one.

Armies have a long and proud history of fighting for economic reasons. Personally, I cannot be arsed with an in-depth search of the historical record, but off the top of my head: conquistadors, Lebensraum, the Raj, Nazi gold.

Pretty much all exploration has had, at its roots, the search for lucre at its core. And where's there's lucre there's fighting. And when the lucre and fighting get serious enough there's armies.

Now the fighting is over black gold (or the fight against terrorism, which is less economic perhaps and more ideological). But before that is was gold gold, spices, whatever.

Yes, armies will fight over ideology and politics also, but to divorce those from economics is, in many/most cases, naive. Sorry, I said it!

bastard by name, bastard by nature

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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)  
 To:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)     
36544.33 In reply to 36544.32 
Money has been involved in war since money has existed, obviously. But I doubt you're going to argue that money was the reason for the Nazis' campaign?

Fighting and getting money is not the same as fighting to stabilise a global economic system. Late medieval expansionism was to gain power and money to better fight European wars, which were in turn about political power (of which economics was by then a part, but not the predominant part).

The British Empire is perhaps an exception, being the first cybernetic empire and one which happily manipulated global markets for gain, but the economics was still a means to an end, not the end in itself.

These days the global economic system and its installation and stabilisation is the end in itself and that's a big difference. It's not about the oil, oil is just today's gold, as you've implied.

In short, there's a huge difference between fighting for money and fighting for... not even 'for', more 'due to' an economic ideology.

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 From:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)  
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)     
36544.34 In reply to 36544.33 
But I doubt you're going to argue that money was the reason for the Nazis' campaign?

No, of course not. And although not a holocaust denier, I doubt that the reason for invading neighbouring nations was to exterminate their Jewish population (ideology, bordering sadism). It all started over Lebensraum, no? And isn't that, to some extent, an economic issue?

All of which reminds me. When my brother first moved to Germany he advertised for a flat to rent. He wanted the usual stuff: kitchen, bedroom, dining room etc. In his (at the time) rusty German he wrote his ad, but instead of writing 'Wohnen' or 'Wohnzimmer' for living room, he put down 'Lebensraum' instead. The estate agent gently advised him that what he was requesting was an apartment with Austria annexed to it.

bastard by name, bastard by nature

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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)  
 To:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)     
36544.35 In reply to 36544.34 
Hahahaha. Reminds me of a thing from some out-take clipshow years ago. Actually, let's see if it's on youtube.


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 From:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)  
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)     
36544.36 In reply to 36544.35 

LMAO
BEAUT!

bastard by name, bastard by nature

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 From:  Mouse  
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)     
36544.37 In reply to 36544.35 
Brahaha, fucking agents. Coming round here, taking our women.

Which of the following would you most prefer?
A: a puppy,
B: a pretty flower from your sweety, or
C: a large properly formatted data file?
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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)  
 To:  Mouse     
36544.38 In reply to 36544.37 
(giggle)

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 From:  koswix   
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)     
36544.39 In reply to 36544.35 
:'D :'D :'D


The Seventh Posture of Burton's translation of The Perfumed Garden is an unusual position not described in other classical sex manuals. The receiving partner lies on their side. The penetrating partner faces the receiver, straddling the receiver's lower leg, and lifts the receiver's upper leg on either side of the body onto the crook of penetrating partner's elbow or onto the shoulder. While some references describe this position as being "for acrobats and not to be taken seriously," others have found it very comfortable, especially during pregnancy.
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