War & Politicsobama's speech

 

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 From:  milko  
 To:  ANT_THOMAS     
41193.57 In reply to 41193.53 
Quote: 
From a medical/physical POV I can see there being an issue, as well as from a psychological POV.

But otherwise, what is the issue?

So, apart from physically and mentally, what's the issue? What's left for there to be an issue with?
milko
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 From:  ANT_THOMAS  
 To:  milko     
41193.58 In reply to 41193.57 
If you consider it to be an issue, there could be a moral/ethical issue.
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 From:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)  
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)     
41193.59 In reply to 41193.54 
quote: X3N0PH0N
I, myself, would not want to have an abortion

You can't have an abortion, you haven't got a womb
</reg>

truffy.gifbastard by name
bastard by nature

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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)  
 To:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)     
41193.60 In reply to 41193.59 
Racist.
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 From:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)  
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)     
41193.61 In reply to 41193.60 
Poof.

truffy.gifbastard by name
bastard by nature

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 From:  fixrman   
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)     
41193.62 In reply to 41193.51 
I don't know how you can possibly say I excuse men from shirking responsibility. What stronger language can I use to condemn men who impregnate women and do not contribute to their support? Fucksticks? Assholes? Pricks, jerkoffs wankers, pigs, whaleshit-eating scumbags? They are all that and more.

Sorry if it gets your goat so to speak and I do understand the defense of women, but it is not entirely an equal issue, to wit:

The man gets what he wants, a time of pleasure with the woman. She also is an active and eager participant. Three months later a phone call is made after which point the guy has long lost interest, perhaps. So he declines further involvement. The woman is still pregnant.

Regardless of your personal feelings on the plight of the woman and the responsibility of the man - should he not take his equal responsibility with the pregnancy - she is still pregnant and has an issue to deal with and choices to make. If he walks away, then she will make those decisions possibly alone and that may include abortion. She will have to pay for it if he doesn't. Because she is the one to suffer the most consequences of the liason (unfortunately), it is therefore more incumbent for the woman to ensure a wise decision is made. My personal feeling is different however than my general feeling on the matter. I could not and would not walk away from a situation like that because I accept personal responsibility. But I do know men, I know the statistics involved and unfortunately if the man won't take precautions the woman should. If a woman and man have sex and pregnancy results and because either they jointly or singularly(in the case of the female, he cannot force an abortion, well that would be extreme) decide then it is de facto birth control. There is no way on God's Green earth that a woman or man cannot know about the possibility of pregnancy in today's day and age.

It is a subtle and fairly nuanced difference in responsibility only because of the consequence. It should be shared responsibility but too often it is not, unless of course the woman want to foce the issue through legal remedies which would be her right, but how many women will actually do that? It does not inherently excuse the man, you are playing semantics.

See how easy it is to turn into a politically charged issue - and it only took one word.

For the record, I do agree with you that there is responsibility -total - on both parts. In a perfect world we don't even have this discussion because there would be no alcohol or drug-fueled or otherwise thoughtless sexual liasons with untimely consequences. But we do not live in a perfect world and people do not submit to moral issues very well which is why they end up being politically charged, They want somebody to make a decision for them and absolve them of the ramifications of their actions. Nobody wins, neither in the beginning nor in the end.
 
  Did you ever see such a messed up situation in your whole life, son?
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 From:  fixrman   
 To:  ANT_THOMAS     
41193.63 In reply to 41193.53 
I think your answer is as good if not better than any I might make.

Required as in? Medically necessary for the health of the female? Please define.

Spelling was shit.
 
  Did you ever see such a messed up situation in your whole life, son?
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 From:  fixrman   
 To:  ANT_THOMAS     
41193.64 In reply to 41193.58 
Both morals and ethics fit in with it being a mental issue. That's where the mental aspect stems from. Also feeling of possible persecution from people who may judge the female and probably less so the male. It isn't right but I have seen it too much to know the woman often suffers more indignation than the male - even from fellow women.

The other physical problem might come in the future, There have been women, though I do not know any statistics on this at all, who have also had difficulty or found it impossible to become pregnant after having had an abortion in the past. I cannot even begin to believe how emotionally devastating that may be.

Just to be clear on it I do know two women who were unable to becaome pregnant and each had received abortions in the past. The fact that the abortion may have had little to do with their inability did little to mitigate the psycological impact. That said I would expect the incidence of that happening today is rather low.
 
  Did you ever see such a messed up situation in your whole life, son?
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 From:  ANT_THOMAS  
 To:  fixrman      
41193.65 In reply to 41193.63 
Required as in, the person/people in question don't want a child. Required to stop that result. To put it crudely, the last possible form of contraception.

I personally have no issue with people having abortions for whatever reason they personally deem fit. It's their bodies, their choice. The only grey area for me would be the timing after conception. This is where I'm unsure about the whole thing.

What time should be the latest it should be allowed? Is a foetus really viable if it requires 24/7 intensive care for a long period?

I've seen a few emotional blackmail type articles lately with photos of babies that have been born very very premature and died. But been born at the current UK limit for abortion (24 weeks in extreme cases I believe). They've been along the lines of "it looks like a real human so the abortion limit is too long". To me this makes no sense, the baby in question died, it wasn't viable. It may even go as far as enforcing/proving the idea that 24 weeks is fine.

Anyway, I'm not actually sure where I'm going with this, but I guess to sum up, whilst abortion should be the last resort and people in general should be more sensible when it comes to contraception I don't have a problem with people using abortion as their chosen method of "contraception".

What's your view on the morning after pill?
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 From:  ANT_THOMAS  
 To:  fixrman      
41193.66 In reply to 41193.64 
quote: fixrman
Both morals and ethics fit in with it being a mental issue. That's where the mental aspect stems from. Also feeling of possible persecution from people who may judge the female and probably less so the male. It isn't right but I have seen it too much to know the woman often suffers more indignation than the male - even from fellow women.

The other physical problem might come in the future, There have been women, though I do not know any statistics on this at all, who have also had difficulty or found it impossible to become pregnant after having had an abortion in the past. I cannot even begin to believe how emotionally devastating that may be.

Just to be clear on it I do know two women who were unable to becaome pregnant and each had received abortions in the past. The fact that the abortion may have had little to do with their inability did little to mitigate the psycological impact. That said I would expect the incidence of that happening today is rather low.

I think I'm trying to separate the moral/ethical and psychological as being separate things. The moral/ethical being more of an issue with society. The psychological part being whether the person in question is comfortable with the idea of preventing or ending a possible human life (if they even view it in that way at all).

And the physical, I agree with you on that. It's a significant procedure for the human body to cope with.

But assuming that you're (the person is) comfortable with the psychological part (eg, maybe you don't see it as a human life) and accept the possible future physical issues I don't believe society should dictate.

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 From:  fixrman   
 To:  ANT_THOMAS     
41193.67 In reply to 41193.65 
Quote: 

What time should be the latest it should be allowed? Is a foetus really viable if it requires 24/7 intensive care for a long period?

Well, what about folks who are in a coma, paralysis or in a state of total mental incapacitation such as Alzheimer's disease? If we extend it out we'd be ending the lives of many in society requiring 24/7 intensive care, wouldn't you say?

Quote: 

What's your view on the morning after pill?

Wow. that was weird. Somehow I was allowed to paste without a Quote box?? (I did add it which is why you see it).

Well, the morning after pill is easy, I am male. I suppose I don't see anything wrong with occassional use, in a way not too much different than a birth control pill, except I suppose it would be possible for an egg to be fertilised ovenight... The difference there I suppose is that within a night there isn't a female on earth who can know they have conceived so I suppose it could remove all guilt (if there would be any). What is the earliest a pregnancy can be detected? I should know that, but I don't.

I am sort of against the taking of drugs of any form "needlessly", but that stems from having personal experience with one who has no choice but to take several medications b.i.d. and I am concerned with side affects for anyone.

Look, I think in this whole discussion I am being misconstrued. Ultimately it is a woman's choice what she does, with whom and where and how often. So if a woman wants or insists on an abortion, she can do it legally or illegally for that matter. I prefer the legal route because I am thinking her life will not be in jeopardy that way. The moral issue is for the woman to deal with, as is the moral issue for the man if he does not support, aid and/or comfort the woman he has impregnated. I feel as strongly about it that I might be given to recommend beating him about the face, breast, chest neck and head with a stout stick for doing it.

The ethical issue is for a doctor to worry about it. How a doctor performs routine, non life-threeatening to the femaleut I amy abortions doesn't quite square with the Hippocratic oath of "first, do no harm", but I may have a personal bias that gets in the way of that.

From Wikipedia, (and outdated, but original form)

I swear by Apollo, the healer, Asclepius, Hygieia, and Panacea, and I take to witness all the gods, all the goddesses, to keep according to my ability and my judgment, the following Oath and agreement:

To consider dear to me, as my parents, him who taught me this art; to live in common with him and, if necessary, to share my goods with him; To look upon his children as my own brothers, to teach them this art; and that by my teaching, I will impart a knowledge of this art to my own sons, and to my teacher's sons, and to disciples bound by an indenture and oath according to the medical laws, and no others.

I will prescribe regimens for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgment and never do harm to anyone.

I will give no deadly medicine to any one if asked, nor suggest any such counsel; and similarly I will not give a woman a pessary to cause an abortion.

But I will preserve the purity of my life and my arts.

I will not cut for stone, even for patients in whom the disease is manifest; I will leave this operation to be performed by practitioners, specialists in this art.

In every house where I come I will enter only for the good of my patients, keeping myself far from all intentional ill-doing and all seduction and especially from the pleasures of love with women or men, be they free or slaves.

All that may come to my knowledge in the exercise of my profession or in daily commerce with men, which ought not to be spread abroad, I will keep secret and will never reveal.

If I keep this oath faithfully, may I enjoy my life and practice my art, respected by all humanity and in all times; but if I swerve from it or violate it, may the reverse be my life.[citation needed]

But there is no legal requirement for a doctor to take this oath upon graduation. Didn't know that. 98% of American students take a form of it, while approximately 50% of British medical students do.

In the U.S. since abortion is legal, performing those is not considered a violation. What I find particularly abhorrent are partial birth abortions. Can't ever convince me of the necessity or the acceptance of that.
 
  Did you ever see such a messed up situation in your whole life, son?
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 From:  ANT_THOMAS  
 To:  fixrman      
41193.68 In reply to 41193.67 
The point about life support, comas etc is one I was considering going to.

As a race we do turn off life support to those who are deemed in a certain state, it happens regularly. I guess it's seen as more acceptable because they've generally lived a life, but there's much more emotion attached due to the surrounding lives affected.
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 From:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)  
 To:  fixrman      
41193.69 In reply to 41193.67 
TBH, I'd ignore the feminazis here. They just need to get laid.

truffy.gifbastard by name
bastard by nature

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 From:  fixrman   
 To:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)     
41193.70 In reply to 41193.69 
Well, if Lucy is indeed female I understand the taking of umbrage at my comment. Be that the case I would wish some of that spunk for the distaff side of my own breed. I meant no disrespect, the opposite actually.

But anyway, perhaps you are handing me the shovel so to speak. Yours is often the attitude that gets taken with any female who shows she is no shrinking violet, yet I wonder if you are ever able to offer your services and how successful you are in delivering them...  8-O

Telling a female they need to get laid often does not turn out well. There are few female friends I have had who would have taken that remark without a quick duck from me unless I have known them quite well and they were quite sure I was joking with them.
 
  Did you ever see such a messed up situation in your whole life, son?
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 From:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)  
 To:  fixrman      
41193.71 In reply to 41193.70 
Lucy's a boy.

truffy.gifbastard by name
bastard by nature

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 From:  patch  
 To:  fixrman      
41193.72 In reply to 41193.70 
And Mr Bastard's a sarky bugger.
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 From:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)  
 To:  patch     
41193.73 In reply to 41193.72 
I prefer agent provocateur!

truffy.gifbastard by name
bastard by nature

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 From:  fixrman   
 To:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)     
41193.74 In reply to 41193.71 
I could have gone either way on that.
 
  Did you ever see such a messed up situation in your whole life, son?
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 From:  fixrman   
 To:  patch     
41193.75 In reply to 41193.72 
Sarcasm can be a delicious addition to any discussion when employed prudently and wry, deadpan style.
 
  Did you ever see such a messed up situation in your whole life, son?
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 From:  fixrman   
 To:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)     
41193.76 In reply to 41193.73 
Too French. Ptoo!!!
 
  Did you ever see such a messed up situation in your whole life, son?
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