Article: Brexit sell by date

From: Harry (HARRYN)19 May 2017 15:52
To: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX) 18 of 34

Stuff like voter suppression and gerrymandering probably are less of a factor than almost any time in the past, though there are certainly politicians who want to turn the clock back and might well succeed given the repug's grip on power (assuming they get their act together, which appears doubtful).

You might be surprised at how much gerrymandering is a factor, perhaps not so much nationally, but at the local vote and local issue level, it is a big deal.

The noise the world hears is our national news and presidential level vs media vs sore loosers, but the real action is a the local and state level.  The position of President is important, but it is somewhat of a ham strung position due to the political battles.

No matter who was elected president, they would have faced exactly the same protesting, news media bs, calls for impeachment, etc. that is happening with Trump.    It is a pretty thankless job and it isn't as if anyone who ran was all that well loved.

Trump had an interesting comment to potential voters, aimed particularly at black voters in MI - something like "You have had a black President for 8 years, how are you doing compared to before?  If you vote for me, what have you got to loose?".  I think you are right when you say that many of the people that voted for Trump didn't particularly like him, but felt like they had little to loose.

Probably similar to the Brexit vote.

From: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)19 May 2017 16:00
To: Harry (HARRYN) 19 of 34
So you think Trump is doing an ok job, and hasn't done anything extraordinary in his campaign or since? He's just a victim of sore "loosers" and media bias?
From: Harry (HARRYN)19 May 2017 16:19
To: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX) 20 of 34
So you think Trump is doing an ok job, and hasn't done anything extraordinary in his campaign or since? He's just a victim of sore "loosers" and media bias?

I think that no matter who is the President, that they would be subject to a media intent on destroying them, for a combination of personal pleasure and professional gain.

You can look at the relationship of the white house and the media as far back as I can remember, certainly back to Johnson / Nixon / Carter ,,, up to Obama, and pretty much all of them were under constant media attack.

I really doubt that Hillary would be in any better position (turmoil wise) than Trump is right now, and perhaps she would have been in worse shape.

The same divisiveness that is now so built into our system during elections is the same divisiveness that is used to keep the President (no matter who it is or what party) from being effective.  This is not just between the two main parties, but also within the same party.  As an example, both Romney and Jeb Bush were hell bent that they deserved to be President and their "crown" was taken away by Trump.  They were and remain firmly against anyone that blocks this, even someone with similar political opinions.

It doesn't actually matter if I agree with the US President or not, because my vote in CA is nearly irrelevant, no matter my political views.

What I do think is important is that we try to work within the system in a positive way and to make whoever is holding the Office of the President "comfortable", because when they aren't, the typical result has been that someone starts a war.  Wars have a very powerful effect on pulling the country together behind a common cause, and I would like to see this avoided.
 

EDITED: 19 May 2017 16:25 by HARRYN
From: Harry (HARRYN)19 May 2017 16:48
To: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX) 21 of 34
So you think Trump is doing an ok job, and hasn't done anything extraordinary in his campaign or since? He's just a victim of sore "loosers" and media bias?

Just slightly more directly answering your question - Trump ran on a "I am going to make some serious changes" kind of agenda.   If you have ever worked in a company with a new CEO with a similar agenda, life can be unsettling, to say the least.

Some of his positions, particularly on our trade deficit problem with China, I completely agree with.  As a practical matter, I don't think he is being tough enough on them, and if he doesn't get tougher, he will be a one term president.

Pulling out of the pan pacific trade pact - I am very happy that this pact failed as it just gave away the store.

US tax laws on business are a complete mess, it is hard to really know if they will get better or worse.  Certainly the current tax system on businesses is driving companies to leave, and is unfair to small and medium business owners who follow US tax laws vs very large companies that can do multi national tax haven games.

No matter who won the election, both Clinton and Trump have son-in-laws that are prominent business people with exceptional ties to Israel and very anti - Iran.  I am not completely comfortable with this situation, but it would not have been different no matter who won.  I am hoping that this is more of a staging for negotiations than a real problem.

NATO  - Yes, I think it is obsolete and don't really understand why it still exists other than to annoy people and spend money.  The EU is a large enough critical mass that they can and should pull their own defense together instead of just beating up indebted countries.

Russia - potential influence on elections.  I don't doubt that they did have some influence, but so did a bunch of other countries including the UK, the bulk of the EU, most of the middle east, Japan, etc. 

Can you imagine if someone actually started to investigate if the UK, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Germany and Canada had any influence on our elections?  Not a single politician at any level would be spared.

As a practical matter, we are all better off figuring out how to work with Russia than constantly against it, because they are a substantial, international influence.


Certainly there are areas where I don't agree with the positions of Mr. Trump, but then again, my wife tells me that I don't usually agree with most anyone. 

I am very much trying to be cooperative in getting our country working again, because the divisiveness we have is not helpful for anyone.






 

EDITED: 19 May 2017 16:52 by HARRYN
From: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)19 May 2017 17:08
To: Harry (HARRYN) 22 of 34
Quote: 
If you have ever worked in a company with a new CEO

Stop right there. POTUS is not even remotely like a "CEO", and a nation cannot be run like a for-profit business. This fundamental misunderstanding is a major source of Trump's woes -- and by many accounts, he was a lousy businessman.

From: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)20 May 2017 15:47
To: Harry (HARRYN) 23 of 34
Trump had an interesting comment to potential voters, aimed particularly at black voters in MI - something like "You have had a black President for 8 years, how are you doing compared to before?  If you vote for me, what have you got to loose?".


https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2017/05/20/black-voters-say-theyre-already-losing-under-trump.html

EDITED: 20 May 2017 15:47 by DSMITHHFX
From: william (WILLIAMA)20 May 2017 22:46
To: Harry (HARRYN) 24 of 34
Quote: 
California - Similar to OH, any citizen, or dual citizen, 18 years or older can vote - If you are convicted of a felony (example illegal drug use), you loose your right to vote while in prison - Once you are released from prison, you are considered a "Felon" for life, and never allowed to vote again = for your entire life.

But according to the website of the California Secretary of State:
 

Voting Rights: Persons with a Criminal History

Print Versions in ten languages

Eligibility Requirements

You can register to vote and vote if you are:

  • A United States citizen and a resident of California,
  • 18 years old or older on Election Day,
  • Not currently in state or federal prison or on parole for the conviction of a felony, and
  • Not currently found mentally incompetent to vote by a court (for more information, please see Voting Rights: Persons Subject to Conservatorship).

Persons with a criminal history who 
can register to vote:

  • In county jail:
    • serving a misdemeanor sentence (a misdemeanor never affects your right to vote)
    • Because jail time is a condition of probation (misdemeanor or felony)
    • Serving a felony jail sentence
    • Awaiting trial
  • On probation
  • On mandatory supervision
  • On post-release community supervision
  • On federal supervised release
  • A person with a juvenile wardship adjudication

Persons with a criminal history who 
cannot register and vote:

  • Currently imprisoned in:
    • State prison
    • Federal prison
  • Currently serving a state prison felony sentence in a county jail or other correctional facility*
  • Currently on parole with the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation
    • Once you are done with parole your right to vote is restored, but you must re-register online at RegisterToVote.ca.gov or by filling out a paper voter registration card.
From: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)21 May 2017 00:25
To: william (WILLIAMA) 25 of 34
Fake news!
From: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)21 May 2017 10:44
To: ALL26 of 34
Brexit and the coming food crisis: ‘If you can’t feed a country, you haven’t got a country’

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/may/21/brexit-coming-food-crisis-seasonal-migrant-labour-eu
From: ANT_THOMAS21 May 2017 13:04
To: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX) 27 of 34
Many people really don't realise how much we rely on low cost labour to feed the country. Food manufacturing is definitely majority eastern European on the production lines. Remove that labour force and we're totally screwed.

To be honest I wasn't totally sure of the extent until fairly recently. I started working in food manufacturing in January and our factory staff on the lines are made up of probably 95%+ non-UK EU citizens. We use agencies during the busy periods and we can only get non-UK people through the door because in general UK people don't want these jobs.

What this results in is a labour force that is worried about their jobs and future. They have homes, children in schools, families that have moved. They've made their lives in the local communities and there's a risk of them having to leave. It's frankly disgusting.
EDITED: 21 May 2017 13:14 by ANT_THOMAS
From: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)21 May 2017 19:19
To: ANT_THOMAS 28 of 34
Very common in North America too, including Canada, though with Mexicans. Also we have a lot of Phillipinos working as nurses aids, child care etc.
EDITED: 21 May 2017 19:21 by DSMITHHFX
From: Harry (HARRYN)25 May 2017 16:06
To: william (WILLIAMA) 29 of 34
Quote: 
California - Similar to OH, any citizen, or dual citizen, 18 years or older can vote - If you are convicted of a felony (example illegal drug use), you loose your right to vote while in prison - Once you are released from prison, you are considered a "Felon" for life, and never allowed to vote again = for your entire life.

But according to the website of the California Secretary of State:
 

Voting Rights: Persons with a Criminal History

Print Versions in ten languages

Eligibility Requirements

You can register to vote and vote if you are:

  • A United States citizen and a resident of California,
  • 18 years old or older on Election Day,
  • Not currently in state or federal prison or on parole for the conviction of a felony, and
  • Not currently found mentally incompetent to vote by a court (for more information, please see Voting Rights: Persons Subject to Conservatorship).

Persons with a criminal history who 
can register to vote:

  • In county jail:
    • serving a misdemeanor sentence (a misdemeanor never affects your right to vote)
    • Because jail time is a condition of probation (misdemeanor or felony)
    • Serving a felony jail sentence
    • Awaiting trial
  • On probation
  • On mandatory supervision
  • On post-release community supervision
  • On federal supervised release
  • A person with a juvenile wardship adjudication

Persons with a criminal history who 
cannot register and vote:

  • Currently imprisoned in:
    • State prison
    • Federal prison
  • Currently serving a state prison felony sentence in a county jail or other correctional facility*
  • Currently on parole with the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation
    • Once you are done with parole your right to vote is restored, but you must re-register online at RegisterToVote.ca.gov or by filling out a paper voter registration card.


Yes, but let's look at the wording and how it is used carefully.
- If you are on parole, then you cannot vote.

Virtually everyone, from a DUI, theft, serious speeding (not a few mph, but certainly 30+ mph over the limit) public drunkenness, to hardened criminal is put on probation.  It isn't unusual for ever minor crimes to get 1  - 3 years.

Along with the probation, are the conditions of probation:
- Meet with probation officer on a very specific schedule, which is his schedule not yours - so you have to tell your boss, take time off of work, etc.  In a workaholic society like we have, who wants to have workers that have to leave to go to meet with the parole officer?
- Many judges have started adding on "no alcoholic beverages while on probation".  That means you might have a speeding ticket and can't have a beer (or vote) for a year.
- You might not be able to leave the county, and certainly the state, without written permission.  If you live near a state border (even here, that is just 4 hours drive), that can be a problem, especially if you are young.

It isn't unusual for someone to "slip" and have some wine with Christmas dinner.  They then put the person on the stand, ask them under oath if they have kept the conditions of their probation.  They also ask their friends, under oath.  If you lie, good chance to get caught lying under oath.  If you admit that you had a glass of wine - probation period is extended.

You can argue that being in jail for a misdemeanor doesn't affect your right to vote, but just try and pull it off.  You can hardly get regularly needed medications while in jail, much less vote.

If you have a criminal history, then usually you cannot get subsidies to attend college and cannot live in college housing.  That makes it very hard to raise the education level.

It is a viscous circle that few lower income people can escape from, and that is in a state that claims to have a safety net and encourage voting.
EDITED: 25 May 2017 16:15 by HARRYN
From: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)25 May 2017 16:24
To: Harry (HARRYN) 30 of 34
Quote: 

Persons with a criminal history who 
can register to vote:

  • On probation

 

From: william (WILLIAMA)25 May 2017 16:27
To: ALL31 of 34
Nor sure what the situation is in the US but generally probation and parole are different things altogether.

Parole is a provision that the offender is allowed to complete the term of a sentence of imprisonment without being confined in recognition of their promise not to reoffend and subject to a return to prison at the discretion of the judiciary.

Probation is a sentence whereby the offender is placed under the authority of the court (the court has probate) for a set period of time. Probation usually replaces imprisonment although there may be imprisonment if the terms of probation are not met.

Since a person on parole is technically serving a period of imprisonment, and an offender is debarred from voting when imprisoned, it follows that the right to vote is removed during parole. I see no evidence at all that probation involves loss of voting rights. I certainly see no evidence to support your assertion that in California: 'Once you are released from prison, you are considered a "Felon" for life, and never allowed to vote again = for your entire life'
EDITED: 25 May 2017 16:30 by WILLIAMA
From: Harry (HARRYN)25 May 2017 17:07
To: william (WILLIAMA) 32 of 34
Nor sure what the situation is in the US but generally probation and parole are different things altogether.

Parole is a provision that the offender is allowed to complete the term of a sentence of imprisonment without being confined in recognition of their promise not to reoffend and subject to a return to prison at the discretion of the judiciary.

Probation is a sentence whereby the offender is placed under the authority of the court (the court has probate) for a set period of time. Probation usually replaces imprisonment although there may be imprisonment if the terms of probation are not met.

Since a person on parole is technically serving a period of imprisonment, and an offender is debarred from voting when imprisoned, it follows that the right to vote is removed during parole. I see no evidence at all that probation involves loss of voting rights. I certainly see no evidence to support your assertion that in California: 'Once you are released from prison, you are considered a "Felon" for life, and never allowed to vote again = for your entire life'

I will go back and look at this some more, because you point out some important distinctions.

Keep in mind that it isn't unusual for CA prisons to release prisoners early and put them on both parole and probation, so they still cannot vote.

If the terms of probation are not met (which can be very simple violations, like having a beer) then you are once again blocked.

Interestingly, voting is not a constitutional "right" AFAIK, but there are fundamental rights that are taken away permanently.  Personally, I don't think that someone who has committed a felony should be blocked from receiving a scholarship to attend college for instance, nor have their "fundamental rights" taken away permanently.

From: Harry (HARRYN)25 May 2017 17:11
To: william (WILLIAMA) 33 of 34
Nor sure what the situation is in the US but generally probation and parole are different things altogether.

Parole is a provision that the offender is allowed to complete the term of a sentence of imprisonment without being confined in recognition of their promise not to reoffend and subject to a return to prison at the discretion of the judiciary.

Probation is a sentence whereby the offender is placed under the authority of the court (the court has probate) for a set period of time. Probation usually replaces imprisonment although there may be imprisonment if the terms of probation are not met.

Since a person on parole is technically serving a period of imprisonment, and an offender is debarred from voting when imprisoned, it follows that the right to vote is removed during parole. I see no evidence at all that probation involves loss of voting rights. I certainly see no evidence to support your assertion that in California: 'Once you are released from prison, you are considered a "Felon" for life, and never allowed to vote again = for your entire life'

But what purpose is served by taking away the right to vote?  If a lot of people are doing something that is considered "criminal", then perhaps the laws need to be changed. 

Drinking beer when you are 20 years old is a serious crime, but should it be?  I once asked a friend in Italy what the drinking age was there, and after thinking about it, she didn't think there was one.  She distinctly remembered going to the local grocery store as a small child and bringing home wine and bread - all by herself.

If a lot of people are turned into criminals by ridiculous laws, then they will not be able to vote in a way that changes these laws.

EDITED: 25 May 2017 17:13 by HARRYN
From: Harry (HARRYN)25 May 2017 17:20
To: william (WILLIAMA) 34 of 34
s. I certainly see no evidence to support your assertion that in California: 'Once you are released from prison, you are considered a "Felon" for life, and never allowed to vote again = for your entire life'

- Companies will not hire you because their business insurance bars them from hiring people with a criminal record.

- If you try to start your own business so that you can have a job, it is nearly impossible to get a contractor license and business licenses are harder to obtain.

- If you do manage to get a contractor license, it is hard to get the required insurance.

- No public funding to further your education

- Housing is much more difficult to obtain

- You are barred from ever owning a gun (I know you don't care, but that is an important right in the US)

- If you move into an area, people will look up your name on the internet, see that you have a criminal record, and won't let their children play with your children.

- It is just a hair trigger of a parole or probation violation to get put back in jail, so essentially you have no voting rights.

I know people who have gone through this and it is a big challenge.

IMHO, this is essentially being treated as a felon for life.


 

EDITED: 25 May 2017 17:22 by HARRYN