Java-me-do
From: Peter (BOUGHTONP)25 Mar 2011 00:09
To: koswix
14 of 49
Eclipse is good, Java is shit.
Definitely don't pick Java.
Something like Scala or Groovy may be a better choice - both runs on the JVM and compile down to Java bytecode, but they (attempt to) hide all the horrible ugly bits of Java, so you can get on with writing code instead of screaming because after jumping through dozens of hoops it's still not doing what you want.
(I've not actually tried Scala or Groovy myself yet, and they might both be shit, but I've heard plenty of people say good things about each of them.)
Oh, and if you're serious about Android stuff, Scala is probably the better of the two.
(Search for "scala android" and you get details of people doing</e> it, whilst "groovy android" is more people asking how to get it working.)
quote:
I've got a few ideas I want to play with, and I miss the fun of VB where you could throw something fun but pointless together in an hour or so.
Definitely don't pick Java.
Something like Scala or Groovy may be a better choice - both runs on the JVM and compile down to Java bytecode, but they (attempt to) hide all the horrible ugly bits of Java, so you can get on with writing code instead of screaming because after jumping through dozens of hoops it's still not doing what you want.
(I've not actually tried Scala or Groovy myself yet, and they might both be shit, but I've heard plenty of people say good things about each of them.)
Oh, and if you're serious about Android stuff, Scala is probably the better of the two.
(Search for "scala android" and you get details of people doing</e> it, whilst "groovy android" is more people asking how to get it working.)
EDITED: 25 Mar 2011 00:31 by BOUGHTONP
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From: Peter (BOUGHTONP)25 Mar 2011 00:37
To: steve
15 of 49
I don't like Java as a language at all, it's really annoying, and I avoid it where possible.
But I'm pretty sure this is nonsense:
It's the sort of thing lots of people say about technologies that aren't mentioned regularly, or they simply don't have much exposure to, and thus assume are withering away.
Java is huge, and even if Oracle wanted to kill it off I'm not sure they could (there's too many companies like IBM, Google, RedHat, Apache, etc who are all heavily invested in it).
And certainly, if he is crazy enough to pick it, he'll have no less trouble finding help with Java than he will with C# or JavaScript or anything else.
But I'm pretty sure this is nonsense:
quote:
I don't think many people use (or at least, decide to start learning) Java anymore
It's the sort of thing lots of people say about technologies that aren't mentioned regularly, or they simply don't have much exposure to, and thus assume are withering away.
Java is huge, and even if Oracle wanted to kill it off I'm not sure they could (there's too many companies like IBM, Google, RedHat, Apache, etc who are all heavily invested in it).
And certainly, if he is crazy enough to pick it, he'll have no less trouble finding help with Java than he will with C# or JavaScript or anything else.
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From: steve25 Mar 2011 00:44
To: Peter (BOUGHTONP)
16 of 49
You reckon? I know it's still widely used, but I just doubt they'd be the same sort of support online as there is for C#. There are twice as many results on Google for "C# programming" than "Java programming".
That may too be nonsense, I dislike using numbers of search results to back up an argument :D , but I still don't think there's the same number of resources.
That may too be nonsense, I dislike using numbers of search results to back up an argument :D , but I still don't think there's the same number of resources.
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From: koswix25 Mar 2011 00:47
To: Peter (BOUGHTONP)
17 of 49
Right, that's that settled then. You disapprove of Java, therefore Java must be good.
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From: ANT_THOMAS25 Mar 2011 00:49
To: koswix
18 of 49
(giggle)
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From: Peter (BOUGHTONP)25 Mar 2011 01:02
To: koswix
19 of 49
Here's some pretty lines, apparently showing job market:
Even with a grain of salt, that's a significant size, and it's rising.
Even with a grain of salt, that's a significant size, and it's rising.
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From: Peter (BOUGHTONP)25 Mar 2011 01:03
To: steve
20 of 49
(oops, that was supposed to go to you.)
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From: koswix25 Mar 2011 01:05
To: Peter (BOUGHTONP)
21 of 49
How dare you post things at me that are meant for Steve? :@
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From: steve25 Mar 2011 01:09
To: Peter (BOUGHTONP)
22 of 49
I know there's a massive career market for Java programmers (I know a few, they are all awful people. "Hello :-B I have a certificate from Oracle :-B "), but if you're a professional programmer working in an office surrounded by other programmers (which your chart is counting) you are quite likely going to ask them your questions before turning to The Internets.
My point all along, as I said in my first post to Kos, was that I don't think there's going to be anything near as large a "community" of amateur programmers online as there would be for a language like C# or PHP.
When I'm teaching myself a new language it's resources like that I really rely on. The fact that some other un-educated buffoon has had the same problem as me, posted to a forum about it and had the solution given to them.
My point all along, as I said in my first post to Kos, was that I don't think there's going to be anything near as large a "community" of amateur programmers online as there would be for a language like C# or PHP.
When I'm teaching myself a new language it's resources like that I really rely on. The fact that some other un-educated buffoon has had the same problem as me, posted to a forum about it and had the solution given to them.
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From: Peter (BOUGHTONP)25 Mar 2011 01:13
To: koswix
23 of 49
You know those silly legal documents where every little detail must be explicitly spelt out and every term precisely defined.
That's what I find Java like. Far too rigid and ceremonial.
It's a bit like the difference between HTML and XHTML...
Those result in the same thing.
If you think the second one over the top, you'll find Java a nightmare. :P
That's what I find Java like. Far too rigid and ceremonial.
It's a bit like the difference between HTML and XHTML...
HTML code:
<!doctype html><html lang="en"> <TITLE>Hello!</TITLE> <p>Wooohoo!!! <p>I <3 lemons.
XML code:
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd"> <html lang="en" xml:lang="en" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"> <head> <title>Hello!</title> </head> <body> <p>Wooohoo!!!</p> <p>I <3 lemons.</p> </body> </html>
Those result in the same thing.
If you think the second one over the top, you'll find Java a nightmare. :P
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From: Peter (BOUGHTONP)25 Mar 2011 01:24
To: steve
24 of 49
http://stackoverflow.com/tags
It's the second most popular language on a heavily .NET-oriented website.
And working out unanswered against total questions, he's more likely to get a Java question answered than a PHP or Javascript one. (87.0 vs 86.9 vs 85.1)
It's the second most popular language on a heavily .NET-oriented website.
And working out unanswered against total questions, he's more likely to get a Java question answered than a PHP or Javascript one. (87.0 vs 86.9 vs 85.1)
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From: steve25 Mar 2011 01:32
To: Peter (BOUGHTONP)
25 of 49
You are exhausting! It's an opinion! :D
I shall give you numbers back, Google-numbers !!:
"Java programming forum": 4,550,000 results
"C# programming forum": 9,780,000 results
"PHP programming forum": 12,800,000 results
There isn't going to be a concise final answer on this, it is just my view on things, but I do feel that PHP and C#.etc are going to be more common as "hobby languages" whilst Java is something one tends to do as a career thing, therefore there's going to be a much more approachable and usable type of support out there online.
I shall give you numbers back, Google-numbers !!:
"Java programming forum": 4,550,000 results
"C# programming forum": 9,780,000 results
"PHP programming forum": 12,800,000 results
There isn't going to be a concise final answer on this, it is just my view on things, but I do feel that PHP and C#.etc are going to be more common as "hobby languages" whilst Java is something one tends to do as a career thing, therefore there's going to be a much more approachable and usable type of support out there online.
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From: koswix25 Mar 2011 01:42
To: Peter (BOUGHTONP)
26 of 49
Your first one doesn't validate at w3C :C
and also, surely that there that you've posted - browsers interpreting HTML any old way they want - is the reason web drawers spend so long having to make sites work in different browsers?
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From: Peter (BOUGHTONP)25 Mar 2011 02:29
To: koswix
27 of 49
You checked! :D
(Ok, so the <3 bit is actually invalid, but it'll still work fine in all browsers.)
And no - parsing textual tags to a logical DOM is straightforward and pretty easy, and is only a small part of how HTML is interpreted. It's the rest of it that causes the problems.
But anyway, at that point the analogy breaks down - whichever language you choose, you're going to have a single compiler, and you only need to work with that compiler. (Well, or two compilers, if you want to do regular Java and Android Java (Dalvik), but anyway, it's not like the multitude of browsers.)
(Ok, so the <3 bit is actually invalid, but it'll still work fine in all browsers.)
And no - parsing textual tags to a logical DOM is straightforward and pretty easy, and is only a small part of how HTML is interpreted. It's the rest of it that causes the problems.
But anyway, at that point the analogy breaks down - whichever language you choose, you're going to have a single compiler, and you only need to work with that compiler. (Well, or two compilers, if you want to do regular Java and Android Java (Dalvik), but anyway, it's not like the multitude of browsers.)
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From: Peter (BOUGHTONP)25 Mar 2011 02:38
To: steve
28 of 49
I don't understand what you're opinioning. :P
If he picks any language listed on that tags page, for any question he has at this point (i.e. beginner level), he can post it on StackOverflow, and there's a >95% chance of it being answered and solved within 24 hours, if not within 30 minutes.
If he wants to do Android, he has a choice:
1. Java (or Java-based) and XML and Android APIs.
2. HTML+CSS+JavaScript (optionally with PhoneGap/equiv to compile).
Is that concise enough? :P
If he picks any language listed on that tags page, for any question he has at this point (i.e. beginner level), he can post it on StackOverflow, and there's a >95% chance of it being answered and solved within 24 hours, if not within 30 minutes.
If he wants to do Android, he has a choice:
1. Java (or Java-based) and XML and Android APIs.
2. HTML+CSS+JavaScript (optionally with PhoneGap/equiv to compile).
Is that concise enough? :P
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From: 99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)25 Mar 2011 08:51
To: koswix
29 of 49
If you buy a Mac you get the Apple developer toolkit which allows you to make apps for approximately 1% of the world's computing population. It's a minority, but one that cares and will love you for your efforts.
(the last part of that second sentence may be a lie)
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From: af (CAER)25 Mar 2011 10:55
To: 99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)
30 of 49
The downside being that Xcode is a horribly confusing mess of a (pair of) applications, unless he pays £5 for Xcode 4.
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From: af (CAER)25 Mar 2011 10:57
To: Peter (BOUGHTONP)
31 of 49
Possibly the reason the job market for Java is so large is because it's used so much in enterprise software ( :& ).
KOS: learn COBOL :{)
KOS: learn COBOL :{)
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From: af (CAER)25 Mar 2011 10:58
To: Peter (BOUGHTONP)
32 of 49
Also, wtf is with that uppercase TITLE tag? It looks ugleh.
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