xrandr - Teh Forum

<body> <div id="header"> <span class="left"> <span class="back"><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT"><span class="image mobile_back" title="Back"></span></a></span> <span class="image mobile_logo" title="Beehive Forum Logo"></span> </span> <ul> <li> <a class="reply_all" href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=43090.0&return_msg=43090.19"> <span class="image mobile_reply_all"></span><span class="text">Reply to All</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="navigation" href="#"> <span class="image mobile_navigation"></span><span class="text">Show messages</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="main" href="#"><span class="image mobile_menu" title="Menu"></span> </a> </li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu main"> <ul> <li><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Messages</a></li> <li><a href="lpm.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Inbox</a></li> <li><a href="lsearch.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Search</a></li> <li><a href="llogon.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Login</a></li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu navigation"><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=43090.1">1–10</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=43090.11">11–20</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=43090.21">21–30</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=43090.31">31–33</a></div> <div id="page_content"> <h3 class="thread_title"><a href="index.php?webtag=DEFAULT&amp;msg=43090.19">xrandr</a> </h3> <div id="messages" data-navigation="43090_19_33_10"> <a name="a43090_19"></a><div class="message" id="message_43090_19"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: william (WILLIAMA)<span class="message_time"> 4 Feb 17:44</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Peter (BOUGHTONP) <span><span class="image post_unread" title="Unread Message"></span></span> <span class="message_count">19 of 33</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=43090.19">43090.19</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=43090.18">43090.18</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Again, I'm very out of the loop with all things Linux, but it didn't take me long to discover a very abrasive relationship between some in the Linux world and the systemd devs. It also seemed likely that this is in part (at least) to the social skills/attitudes/agenda of Lennart Poettinger. </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=43090.19&return_msg=43090.19" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="43090.19"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a43090_20"></a><div class="message" id="message_43090_20"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)<span class="message_time"> 4 Feb 22:42</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Peter (BOUGHTONP) <span><span class="image post_unread" title="Unread Message"></span></span> <span class="message_count">20 of 33</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=43090.20">43090.20</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=43090.18">43090.18</a></div> <div class="message_body"> I accidentally nuked my downloads directory (of ~4-5 years worth of assorted downloads) a few months back. It had stuff I wish I could recover, but rm -rf is pretty fucking final. I was trying to do a backup of it but lost track of which directory I was working in. Gone.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=43090.20&return_msg=43090.19" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="43090.20"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a43090_21"></a><div class="message" id="message_43090_21"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Drew (X3N0PH0N)<span class="message_time"> 5 Feb 07:03</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: william (WILLIAMA) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 5 Feb 07:21"></span></span> <span class="message_count">21 of 33</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=43090.21">43090.21</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=43090.19#a43090_19" target="_self">43090.19</a></div> <div class="message_body"> I think systemd exposed a tension that was emerging in Linux between wanting things to be simple to use and simple to understand. And you can't really have both.<br /> <br /> Systemd's init is really simple to use. Give it a unit file and it basically handles the rest. Don't have to worry about dependencies or ordering or what happens if the thing crashes, it just handles all of that and works well.<br /> <br /> But if you want to know what your init is up to - what it's doing when and why, it's a nightmare. It's virtually a black box.<br /> <br /> It really represents the professionalisation of Linux. It's less something to play with and understand and more something you can stick on a 'workstation' and not worry about.<br /> <br /> I use a lot of systemd stuff, some of it is very good. I like its networking stack and its timers for example. But that professionalisation does rub me up the wrong way. I don't want corporatised Linux.<br /> <br /> If it gets too bad, there's always BSD.<br /> <br /> Speaking of which, this is an interesting and balanced talk about Systemd by a BSD dev.<br /> <br /> (I know you basically said you're not interested but someone might be!)<br /> <br /> <iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/o_AIw9bGogo" style="height:360px;margin:0px auto;width:480px;"></iframe></div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=43090.21&return_msg=43090.19" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="43090.21"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a43090_22"></a><div class="message" id="message_43090_22"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: william (WILLIAMA)<span class="message_time"> 5 Feb 07:45</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Drew (X3N0PH0N) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 5 Feb 09:26"></span></span> <span class="message_count">22 of 33</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=43090.22">43090.22</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=43090.19#a43090_21" target="_self">43090.21</a></div> <div class="message_body"> That was *kind of* the feeling I was getting in my meandering around the topic. Not so much that I'm not interested as I don't understand what systemd is doing as it does it - or a lot of Linux these days. </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=43090.22&return_msg=43090.19" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="43090.22"> <span class="rating">+1/1</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a43090_23"></a><div class="message" id="message_43090_23"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: william (WILLIAMA)<span class="message_time"> 5 Feb 15:05</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Drew (X3N0PH0N) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 6 Feb 03:28"></span></span> <span class="message_count">23 of 33</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=43090.23">43090.23</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=43090.19#a43090_21" target="_self">43090.21</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Yeah, that's an interesting talk. I was coming round to thinking what he had to say about Lennart Poettinger, ie death threats are not cool. But at the same time, Poettinger seems like a guy who wants to corporatise the start up and management of linux, but can't abide the corporate controls (such as thoroughly logging and investigating bugs) that go with that. He also seems every bit as resistant to change that he isn't making as any change-resistant linux dev, eg changing from using Google DNS and Time servers as a fallback. I saw an exchange with somebody who raised that as an issue, pointing out that Google doesn't necessarily share the aims of every linux user, where he closed the bug report with: <br /> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <blockquote> <div class="quote">Christ, what's next? You accuse us of controlling people's minds with vaccinations we get directly from Bill Gates? And that systemd uses 5G to spread CoV-2? I don't think we need the input from the script kiddie peanut gallery here.</div> </blockquote> But, whatever, a nice run through of the history and how systemd got where it is. I suspect it's there to stay judging from the pies it has its fingers in.<br /> <br /> I'm not a big fan of the "if you don't like it write your own" argument. It's a bit disingenuous. Not many people have the resources, time, financial support to do that, and certainly not the clout to get their version incorporated into multiple distros. <br /> <br /> Not sure how I feel about containers, and I say that as somebody who runs nextcloud from a snap which is next door to the same thing. I thought he rather side-stepped the question from the guy who mentioned dll-hell.<br /> <br /> <div class="edit_text">EDITED: 5 Feb 17:43 by WILLIAMA</div> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=43090.23&return_msg=43090.19" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="43090.23"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a43090_24"></a><div class="message" id="message_43090_24"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Drew (X3N0PH0N)<span class="message_time"> 6 Feb 04:18</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: william (WILLIAMA) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 6 Feb 08:19"></span></span> <span class="message_count">24 of 33</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=43090.24">43090.24</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=43090.19#a43090_23" target="_self">43090.23</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Yeah, generally I like that the people behind FOSS projects are actual humans with human virtues and failings. Some of them are lovely, some of them are dickheads. Rather than stepford PR pleasantness of corporations, like.<br /> <br /> I don't like it when FOSS (or adjacent stuff) gets corporate or startuppy. The Mastodon dude leans that way.<br /> <br /> It's nice when devs are attentive to their users but I also don't mind it when they're like: I made this, it works for me, you can use it if you like but it is what it is, I'm making the decisions.<br /> <br /> The problem with Pottering is that he's doing that latter *within Redhat*, which, as you've said, is just kinda weird.<br /> <br /> "Write your own" is bullshit, yeah. At least when aimed at individuals. And he *totally* sidestepped the DLL thing, yeah.<br /> <br /> I think the interesting part of the talk was just identifying the necessity(?) for a system layer which takes care of all that semi-persistent state stuff on modern computers. I buy it *up to a point*. As soon as he gives examples he kinda loses me because he's not describing anything like how I use my computer. I *think* he's describing something like a phone.<br /> <br /> I think flatpaks and snaps, and also wayland and systemd to an extent, are really about making Linux more friendly to corporations and proprietary software vendors. Flatpaks and snaps make no sense to me whatsoever in a package-managed system. Same with docker on servers. I use docker images when that's what's supplied but I hate doing so. It's a very unlinuxy (and inefficient and inflexible) way to distribute software.<br /> <br /> I like containers in principle. They're a better way to do a lot of what was previously done in VMs. I know Steam makes a lot of use of containers on Linux (no idea what it does on Windows), to essentially give each game all the stuff it needs, and that makes sense - that's the neatest way to do that (but again, it's really working around the flaws in proprietary software. Games in this case).<br /> <br /> And I like distrobox. It's a little program that lets you install and run another distro on your running kernel. so if I want to try out the Debian version of some program, or use a program that's not provided by my distro, it's an easy and pretty light way to do that.<br /> <br /> Linux is getting more coporatey over time. And I fear that as it gets more mainstream (aided by stuff like Steam Deck), what happened to the web will happen to Linux. Or it'll become Android. As soon as I can run my games on BSD I'll probably hop over.<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=43090.24&return_msg=43090.19" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="43090.24"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a43090_25"></a><div class="message" id="message_43090_25"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Drew (X3N0PH0N)<span class="message_time"> 6 Feb 04:19</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: william (WILLIAMA) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 6 Feb 08:19"></span></span> <span class="message_count">25 of 33</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=43090.25">43090.25</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=43090.19#a43090_23" target="_self">43090.23</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Also, re: dockers etc.<br /> <br /> <img alt="" src="https://external-preview.redd.it/kPQ__at4fKKgnYwxUE1Y50bSW7dMyypwpCgPUmFRg04.jpg?auto=webp&s=f3b7d41ce149fcc8074a02bd90f6d82f59c9544b" /></div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=43090.25&return_msg=43090.19" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="43090.25"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a43090_26"></a><div class="message" id="message_43090_26"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: william (WILLIAMA)<span class="message_time"> 6 Feb 09:54</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Drew (X3N0PH0N) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 6 Feb 10:14"></span></span> <span class="message_count">26 of 33</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=43090.26">43090.26</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=43090.19#a43090_24" target="_self">43090.24</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">It's a very unlinuxy (and inefficient and inflexible) way to distribute software.</div> It's not even an especially new of novel idea. I mean, I struggle to see what's different <em>in principal</em> between say a snap, and an old windows or DOS program that installs all it's gubbins, and maybe a runtime or whatever into its own program directory. I'm not saying there <em>aren't</em> differences, but... <br /> <br /> When I started running nextcloud as a snap, of course I was impressed. I'd run owncloud for years and migrated it across boxes and reinstalled it when upgrading distros. then I moved to nextcloud because I'd hit an owncloud error which I couldn't resolve and I was at the limit of free help from the company. Then I found I needed to rebuild the box yet again and the prospect of reinstalling apache or nginx and configuring letsencrypt and all the bollox all over again seemed such a drag, so yes, one command "sudo snap install nextcloud" which did 90% of the work seemed pretty good to me. It has it's irritations, like logs being in a different place and you have to use snap commands to configure things (which I always forget), but I'm not complaining. But I imagine if you're very used to a system managed by apt or rpm etc. then it could be annoying in the extreme.<br /> <br /> Back on the topic of systemd, yes, exactly that. I can't see how a layer to manage the launch of things that persist is anything other than a good idea. Then I think, well hang on, so how did stuff work before? Things didn't just fall over or run amok all the time (well yes, some did, but they still do). And when you look, of course there were other solutions. It's just that systemd is sweeping all away. The interesting question is "why is that happening?".<br /> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">As soon as I can run my games on BSD I'll probably hop over.</div> Or write your own kernel, operating system suite, systemd enquivalent? Call it DinLin, Drew is not linux.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=43090.26&return_msg=43090.19" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="43090.26"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a43090_27"></a><div class="message" id="message_43090_27"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Drew (X3N0PH0N)<span class="message_time"> 6 Feb 10:26</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: william (WILLIAMA) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 6 Feb 10:30"></span></span> <span class="message_count">27 of 33</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=43090.27">43090.27</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=43090.19#a43090_26" target="_self">43090.26</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Yeah it's not a million miles away from just bundling DLLs in a directory. We'll go to great lengths to avoid the thing Linux (and BSD) is really good at and everything else is bad at: Dynnamic linking.<br /> <br /> Yeah if I were installing nextcloud I'd go with a docker or whatever too. Anything that requires a database and a web server is a pain in the arse. It *shouldn't* be a pain in the arse, I think we fucked up somewhere and containers are a dreadful solution to the problem. But for now, it's easy and it works.<br /> <br /> I think the need for a kinda explicit system layer comes with USB, wifi and having multiple devices. Hardware was less transient in the past so things didn't need handling in a dynamic way, really. And you didn't want to take your "account" or whatever elsewhere.<br /> <br /> My OS will be written in 100% bash. And it'll be called Dim. Dim isn't Minix.<br /> <br /> <br /> <div class="edit_text">EDITED: 6 Feb 10:27 by X3N0PH0N</div> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=43090.27&return_msg=43090.19" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="43090.27"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a43090_28"></a><div class="message" id="message_43090_28"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: william (WILLIAMA)<span class="message_time"> 6 Feb 11:42</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Drew (X3N0PH0N) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 6 Feb 12:13"></span></span> <span class="message_count">28 of 33</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=43090.28">43090.28</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=43090.19#a43090_27" target="_self">43090.27</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Yes, it's a different world now, and especially with the web as he said in the talk. <br /> <br /> Database, web server, maybe a dash of webdav and that's a recipe for something complicated that shouldn't be. I suppose it's because there are so many dependent components. I lose count of the number of times I've followed a script to install something and broken down because PHP is out of date, or 'command not found' or a folder isn't where it should be because it all changed 6 months ago. Or something. <br /> <br /> Anyway, Dim. That's a properly recursive acronym.<br /> <br /> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=43090.28&return_msg=43090.19" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="43090.28"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div></div> <div class="message_page_footer"> <ul> <li class="right_col"><form accept-charset="utf-8" method="get" action="lmessages.php" target="_self"><input type="hidden" name="webtag" id="webtag" class="bhinputtext" value="DEFAULT" dir="ltr" /><input type="hidden" name="msg" id="msg" class="bhinputtext" value="43090.29" dir="ltr" /><input type="submit" name="submit" id="keep_reading" value="Keep reading…" class="button" /></form></li> </ul> </div> </div> </body>